Apogee trouble can anyone help please

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Apogee trouble can anyone help please

Postby heathen » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:31 pm

Hi there again,can anyone please tell me what is wrong with my Apogee psx 100se.Whenever I change from confidence monitor mode back to normal mode I get this disgusting distortion (white noise hmmm and brown I think too)it does'nt stop untill letting the unit cool down for a while.It is obviously meant to sit in a rack so whats the prob,overheating? This is extremely frustrating trying to work and having to shutdown every half hour.I'm using the toslink i/o into a motu 828mk2 for its firwire. I just called the dealer I bought it from and they said they won't even trade it in on a new rosetta and I've only had it several months in which time the last 2 months this trouble has been intermittant,but getting progressively worse. Has anyone else had this trouble? The unit was meant to be new,well excess stock anyway, but.....I'd say sitting in a rack in thier display slowly dying for years.
Anyway they said they would send it back to the states to be fixed under warranty which may take forever.
Any ideas on the trouble would be appreciated.
Thanks guys
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Re: Apogee trouble can anyone help please

Postby Linear » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:59 pm

heathen wrote:Hi there again,can anyone please tell me what is wrong with my Apogee psx 100se.Whenever I change from confidence monitor mode back to normal mode I get this disgusting distortion (white noise hmmm and brown I think too)it does'nt stop untill letting the unit cool down for a while.It is obviously meant to sit in a rack so whats the prob,overheating? This is extremely frustrating trying to work and having to shutdown every half hour.I'm using the toslink i/o into a motu 828mk2 for its firwire. I just called the dealer I bought it from and they said they won't even trade it in on a new rosetta and I've only had it several months in which time the last 2 months this trouble has been intermittant,but getting progressively worse. Has anyone else had this trouble? The unit was meant to be new,well excess stock anyway, but.....I'd say sitting in a rack in thier display slowly dying for years.
Anyway they said they would send it back to the states to be fixed under warranty which may take forever.
Any ideas on the trouble would be appreciated.
Thanks guys



Gee that's tough if it's only two months old!

Unless you bought it under special conditions (no warranty/refund) then for all intents and purposes, the unit is faulty. If they don't want to play ball, I'd be in contact with fair trading. Something that new should work without fault and if it's doing that then the dealer should replace it or get it fixed locally, and if it does have to be sent off to the US they should really give you some kind of replacement in the interim.

I wonder if the unit was a display model, meaning it was switched on for 8 hours a day?

If you want to try and sort it yourself (and void the warranty), maybe try:

- installing a fan in the unit
- finding out what gets hot and putting a heatsink on it
- recapping it? if it has been running hot for a while the caps may have dried out causing it to crap out (although I don't know what artifacts you'd get on something digital that needs recapping).

Let us know how you go.

Cheers

Chris
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Postby mark rachelle » Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:02 pm

i know that sound

it often happens only for a second when you change over monitoring/sample rates

however my noise disapears straight away
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Apogee trouble

Postby Howard Jones » Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:56 pm

I run a service centre in Sydney and I'd strongly discourage you from opening this box or in any way tampering with it until/unless you get this sorted with the organisation from which you purchased it. Given that they are already showing a distinct lack of interest in helping you, should you give them the slightest excuse (i.e. opening it up yourself) it sounds like they would seize upon it to walk away from you altogether.

I'm afraid that most of what Chris wrote is wishful thinking. Did you investigate the warranty conditions at the time of purchase? Did you make yourself aware that, in the case of a fault condition, the unit would need to be returned to the US for repair. I doubt it. Sorry to be harsh, but was this unit sold at a "good price"? That is, was your attention drawn to the "bargain" you were getting (and away from any problems the box might have)? Until they have an incident like this, most people just don't think about the quality of support they will get in the event of a warranty claim. Our industry is full of shops selling on price only and also full of customers buying on price only.

Despite what people might think or wish, a seller is under no obligation other than to ensure the repair of your item during the warranty period. They are not required to provide you a loan item, replace your faulty item etc etc. Morally, everyone on this forum may feel that the shop should, but the shop is entitled to stick to its legal requirements. Also, let's not be too quick to jump to the conclusion that the shop is in the wrong here. Maybe they were sent a dud by the importer? Maybe the shop was offered run-out stock at a discount price and that cheaper price was able to be passed on to you? And maybe that stock was a bit dodgy. Who knows?

Although you are understandably upset, you need to follow some pretty clear steps. The first is to liaise in a calm way with the shop and clarify exactly what support they are prepared to give you. Find out how long they think getting the box repaired in the US will take - it may be quicker than you think and possibly way quicker than local repair. If they can't answer that question, get them to find out from the importer or do this yourself.

If you decide in the course of this that the shop are being a pack of bastards and that you can't work with them, email Apogee and explain the background to the dispute. Keep an eye on this forum because, given the history of overheating problems in Apogees, someone is likely to have had this problem also and can tell you what steps they took to deal with it.

I hope that you can resolve this quickly.

Howard
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Postby heathen » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:02 pm

Yeah thats the noise Mark but mine does'nt stop sometimes,damn it. Oh well I'll get it sorted,also they offered something to borrow,so thats ok I guess. But if it still won't work properly when I get it back,I'll want a refund or trade in.Funny thing is I was going to buy a rosetta 800 as well soon but hmmmm maybe not,I still wanted to keep the psx 100 for monitoring and other tasks so I'm not trying to stiff them. The unit has'nt left my rack since I put it in and I have spacers to let air through in between units. Oh well hopefully it won't take too long to get done.
I'm almost 100% positive its not the motu dying as that was my first thought when this started happening,but it's never glitched out or lost comunication with my pc.The Apogee still displayed it was sync locked as well. We'll see how it goes.I remember Rick mentioning he had one die once.Though I can't remember the circumstances leading to its death ,hehe.
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Postby heathen » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:13 pm

Hey thanks Howard as well,I won't dare go near it with a screw driver.The warranty is for one year,and they said maybe 10 days return,dunno yet,we'll see.Also I'm under the impression that superceeded does not mean broken even if at a good price.I was as cool as could be when going through the return talk,I'll bite when confronted but it's all ok I'm not angry just frustrated.
I did'nt know apogee had an over-heating problem,I'll get it checked out before the warranty runs out and when it gets back I'll leave it out of the rack. Also was lucky my monitors did'nt die either.Was very loud.
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Re: Apogee trouble

Postby Linear » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:18 pm

Howard Jones wrote:I run a service centre in Sydney and I'd strongly discourage you from opening this box or in any way tampering with it until/unless you get this sorted with the organisation from which you purchased it. Given that they are already showing a distinct lack of interest in helping you, should you give them the slightest excuse (i.e. opening it up yourself) it sounds like they would seize upon it to walk away from you altogether.

I'm afraid that most of what Chris wrote is wishful thinking. Did you investigate the warranty conditions at the time of purchase? Did you make yourself aware that, in the case of a fault condition, the unit would need to be returned to the US for repair. I doubt it. Sorry to be harsh, but was this unit sold at a "good price"? That is, was your attention drawn to the "bargain" you were getting (and away from any problems the box might have)? Until they have an incident like this, most people just don't think about the quality of support they will get in the event of a warranty claim. Our industry is full of shops selling on price only and also full of customers buying on price only.

other stuff snipped



This is from the Fair trading website:

[quote="Fair Trading Website"]
When can consumers insist on a refund?

The goods a consumer purchases must be of merchantable quality. Goods and services supplied to consumers must also be reasonably fit for any particular purpose made known by the consumer to the supplier except where the consumer does not rely, or it is unreasonable for the consumer to rely, on the skill or judgment of the supplier.

Consumers may ask for a refund if the goods purchased:

*are so defective that they should not have been sold; eg. they don
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Warranty

Postby Howard Jones » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:01 pm

Hi Chris,

Your remarks are fair and I agree with the general tenor of them - you'd hope that suppliers would lean towards understanding the purchaser's point of view and not resort to applying black-letter law.

My thoughts were aimed at a wider situation than just the one concerning this Apogee. I have direct experience of organisations (in Sydney) who repeatedly treat customers poorly and yet those same customers keep coming back for more. I agree that in theory, these organisations should no longer be in business. But - they are. Why? Because people buy on price alone.

Geez, these days people even buy new stuff over the net from the US etc (Why? Because they pay less, assuming that the same model is available here) and then find themselves in trouble if the thing breaks down.

There's a lot to say on this topic, but I won't expound any further just now. I will, however, give you one example of a very common warranty support situation. Sony (or Ta@#$%, Fostex - insert any name you care to think of) make a box and, of course, offer a warranty on that item. Joe Bloggs Audio Sales sells that box to Heathen and it breaks down 2 months after he buys it. Heathen goes back to Joe Bloggs who say: "Sure, yes of course we support you Heathen! Please go straight around to Sony (Ta@#$%, Fostex etc etc) with your proof of purchase and they'll fix you right up." Nothing illegal, good support offered to the client, but often a pretty useless situation for that client.

If Heathen is lucky, Joe Bloggs will at least book the job in for him and send it on to the manufacturer for warranty repair. If he's not too lucky, he's left to figure out where to actually take the thing and meanwhile he has to root around in his shoebox to see if he kept the purchase docket. This is a very common scenario in Sydney. It's perfect for the retailer - no messy warranty issues to deal with.

There are many corollaries to this. I'll leave you to figure them out, but they revolve around the old tag - Oils ain't oils, Sol.

Howard.

P.S. Yes, it is wishful thinking, mostly. And, don't forget, whilst you are busy invoking the provisions of the Fair Trading Act, the repair is going nowhere and Heathen's studio is at a standstill.
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Faulty Apogee

Postby Howard Jones » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:10 pm

"Hey thanks Howard as well,I won't dare go near it with a screw driver.The warranty is for one year,and they said maybe 10 days return,dunno yet,we'll see.Also I'm under the impression that superceeded does not mean broken even if at a good price.I was as cool as could be when going through the return talk,I'll bite when confronted but it's all ok I'm not angry just frustrated.
I did'nt know apogee had an over-heating problem,I'll get it checked out before the warranty runs out and when it gets back I'll leave it out of the rack. Also was lucky my monitors did'nt die either.Was very loud."

Honestly, 10 days turnaround to the US and back sounds good to me. Also, a factory repair sounds attractive. No, superceded does not mean broken otherwise there'd be a lot of trouble with car sales! I misinterpreted your frustration - sorry.
We haven't bothered with Apogee repairs over the years but my observation every time I see one is that they run pretty damned hot (the subject of under-designed, under-engineered, over-heating equipment deserves a thread all of its own). I also recall reading complaints about Apogees (just for overheating, mind you) in various forums including, I think, this one. No doubt Rick will enlighten us in due course.

The point about your monitors is a very good one. Given the cost of reconing, taking steps to avoid the delivery of harsh noise or high voltages to your drivers seems like a wise precaution.

Howard.
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Postby Mark Bassett » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:14 pm

Good luck amigo,

I bought a laptop from Compaq a few years back. It never worked, ever. From the day it was switched on it froze for no reason. 6 trips to compaq, and two years later I own a very expensive door stop. Quote all the legislation you like, after time after time of having your pants pulled down and getting your item back in worse condition that you sent it, it's just too much to deal with. i'm never going to get the time i spent frustrated back, and they can't replace all that energy i wasted....
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Postby Martinez » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:18 pm

Hey Heathen,

where did you buy the doomed item

it wasn't turramurra was it?
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Compaq

Postby Howard Jones » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:23 pm

Hi Mark,

That is a really terrible example of when these situations go right out of hand. As far as the audio world goes, there are definitely organisations to deal with and those to avoid. The best will offer an immediate exchange if they can on goods purchased and found to be faulty.

I know one such company that won't even automatically ask for proof of purchase. These are the type of companies that people reading this forum need to support. Price isn't everything - just ask anyone whose studio has been down for an extended period because of warranty haggling.

Obviously, those of us reading your remarks are unlikely to ever buy a Compaq.

Howard.
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Postby mark rachelle » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:41 pm

well i'm not afraid to name the good guys and the bad guys

good guys
- serge @ audio oz, always helped and gone above and beyond
- awave, got the importer to actualy replace my used and frozen L2 with a new one (still under warranty)

bad guys
- one digidesign sales rep at mannys who yelled at me for asking a question about protools!
- factory sound who would not lend me a be!@#$%^& converter whilst the one i bought from them was getting repaired (after3 weeks from sale).
now thats tight!
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Postby heathen » Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:52 pm

I should'nt go naming names yet but will if things don't work out in the customers favour,being me. It is tough when some smug sales rep says "ah we'll send it to the USA it will only be a few weeks" and "it's at our discretion when to do so",when usually they have no idea how a particular unit works anyway all the while trying to make you feel inferior and pretending (poorly)that they are doing you a favour.They only offered to lend me something in the meantime after I got stroppy. There are some top places out there to buy from but there are some crooks too. Nah Martinez it was'nt Turramurra music.
I'll sort it out over the next few days,I'm sure they will come too an agreement.Otherwise I'll read them my rights so to speak. Linear you are right too,I'm familiar with the trade practices,my parents own a grog shop,while different in trade the principles are the same,we refund or replace any defective goods no questions asked. Actually I should get thier business partner to call them haha,you should hear the way he speaks to sales reps.
I even said I'd trade it in for a new Rosetta and give them more of my money since it would basically be an upgrade and they could give the psx100se back to Apogee since it does'nt work properly.I think they think I'm trying to get an upgrade for nothing and using them as a lending service,which is not the case.Also there were no special provisions,a warranty is a warranty I don't care what anyone says and yep I've got all the paperwork and reciepts and box.
I guess this is a topic in which everyone has had to deal with and hates.They'll see it my way. Also still I'm wondering if this is very common with Apogee gear,if so I'm sure I can hear a whisper saying Mytec,Lavry hmmmmm.
Thanks for all the responses guys.
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Postby Martinez » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:10 pm

actually.................

I don't know if this is anything but,

I was on merc audio and under specials or second hand or something like that,
a vast majority is apogee stuff.

they said that its gear that they have taken out feild testing and don't feel right selling as new,

but I just couldn't help but notice that most of it was apogee.

it was after I read this post too.
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Postby rick » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:13 pm

i have had a very long relationship with apogee regarding things that don't work and need to go back to america for repairs

i have at my shipping and insurance expense sent units back and forth to them for over ten years costing me thousands of dollars

apogee foot the repair bill but not the shipping,

the importer should foot the shipping but in my experience i could never get the bastards to do it, and i tried all kinds of things !

you will need to send it back to the usa , that is the best option.

that said my apogee psx is the only thing i have ever had from them that has behaved flawlessly

i am sure chris is right about consumer and fair trading rights, but $300 in freight and a three week wait will solve your problem, in my experience apogee stuff does not repair itself and the importers do not believe its their problem.
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Postby heathen » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:40 pm

G'day Rick,yeah I thought you may have had some troubles with thier units.I loved the PSX,great quality and simple to use.I went in today and sorted things out with them and all is good.They traded it for a new rosetta 200 and some extra moolah,they did a pretty good deal. Shipping things os would be a nightmare constantly doing it back and forth for repairs,so I thought bugger them I would prefer a trade in. It sounds a little different,I'm not sure weather better or not,so I'll test for a few days and see,but it should be fine,no complaints yet,as long as it is similar in quality I'm happy.
The place I bought it from looked after me today though they were not so keen yesterday when I phoned.My hat goes off to them they did the right thing,I've bought a fair few bits of gear there in the past.They saw I was'nt trying to scam them or whatever they thought yesterday.
The new unit is in the same place as the old 1 and no horrible noises yet so I'm 100% sure it was the psx and not the motu.
Thanks for your support everyone,I appreciate it.
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