miking a piano live

[mark rachelle]

hey all

need some thoughts on miking a grand piano live

feedback is an issue but i want to get the best sound possible

i'm not sure condensors will have enough rejection

[Barney Loveland]

I recently did a gig where the sound guy had a pzm inside (lid closed) and a 58 vertically under the piano in the middle of the sound board, was a great live sound, not sure how it would go recorded but had good volume and sound with a 14 piece big band

[Kris]

I would put a digital keyboard in place of the real one. As long as the keys aren't visible to the audience it won't be a problem.

Sarah McLachlan mics her piano via a pair of Neumann KMS 140's with shockmounts clamped to the inside bracing structure of the piano. She also uses a Helpinstill piano pickup. The piano is treated with acoustic dampening material on the underside of the lid to reduce reflections and to produce a more "open lid" sound.

[Damien]

i have done a fair bit of this. with both loud bands and the quiet ones (most recent was for manhattan transfer)

lid closed - pzm or 2 taped on the lid facing the strings, one for bass one for tops/attack.

lid open - go under the piano and put 1 or 2 pzm's on the rails facing up towards the sound board. again one on the bottom end, one for top.

if the band are quiet i have used a pzm on the floor or on a pillow facing the sound board (the underside of the piano)

it also works with a 57 or better on a short stand pointing up again under the piano facing the sound board.

good luck

damien

[mark rachelle]

thanks all

i can't use digital piano cause the venue wants me to play their grand

the band is ac piano , di'd ac gtr and acoustic drums + 1 singer with gtr and piano on vocals too (4peice)

we are pretty quiet first set but pretty loud by the time we get to the last set

too loud for the piano anyway
its brand new and i don't want to break strings or my fingers!
hands are still sore from last week

so i like the idea of open top with a mike underneath facing up

damien if this is a 57 (cause thats in the live kit) do you place in the centre

i guess i'm after a bit of cut/attack not so much any fatness/bass

which kinda means more to the top end but i'm not sure if it makes too much of a difference cause of the soundboard

cheers
m

[Damien]

its trial n lots of errors.

gain before feedback v tone.

if you can play, with someone at the desk and someone else moving the mic.
its a tone/volume/feedback rumble thing.

you may need 2 mics close to the sound board for enough volume.

it will work with 57's, ive had to do it plenty of times.

damien

[JulienG]

lid closed - pzm or 2 taped on the lid facing the strings, one for bass one for tops/attack.

lid open - go under the piano and put 1 or 2 pzm's on the rails facing up towards the sound board. again one on the bottom end, one for top.

Hey someone stole my technique :wink:

My personal favorite was a PZM either on the lid or soundboard (depended on which sounded better that day), a 58 on the bass, and the nicest condensor for the highs.

[mfdu]

i'm digging pzm's for all sorts of things at the moment.

at the end of the day, it all comes down to how the piano is feeling at the time. has it been drinking? is it a bit shy?

a soft rubbing under the soundboard can calm even the most flighty of keys.

that doesn't help at all, i know.

chris.

[Martinez]

Hey Mfdu,

have to be carefull how you answer now.

youve crossed the line to valued contributer.

you have to be more responsible than that now!

[mfdu]

ooh ooh ooh call me valued and you think that'll calm me down?

:)

[Mitch Kenny]

Hey Mark

Check out the AKG c747's. Great souding little condensor with really good of axis rejection.


Have you inished you new space ?

MItch

[mark rachelle]

thanks mitch

space is all pretty much done

except for some painting and arcs

control room acoustics are now great

and the bands now have somewhere to hang out and not annoy us

[Henry]

Stav did a feature in AT mag on Piano mic' ing. I remember thinking it was brilliant. About 1-2 years ago maybe? Someone here will know. Has alot of diagnostic type info to his approach.

[Martinez]

Yeah the basic Idea is to capture the deeper frequncies and then turn the treble up at the desk.

aparrently turning the treble up brings out the nice harmonics toward the bright end on the piano while doing it the other way round will produce mud.

I think He uses a figure of 8 for this from memory.

[Martinez]

Whoops!

hope I havent infringed on some sort of copywrite there.

[Kris]

Copywrite.... maybe. Copyright... no.

[Martinez]

Oh yeah right.

[mark rachelle]

well i miked up the piano

the sound was basically 50% open top and 50% miked from the soundboard underneath

i used a 57 for the low end and a ev308 for the top end

the ev308 has a fairly narky sound to it but it seemed to suit the pa well and added the right amount of clarity

there was no problem with feedback at all even when the band was really loud and the FOH was turned up
thanks for everyones responses