what drum kit?

[mfdu]

ok

the time has come for me to get my own set of drums for the studio.

so tired of dealing with all the variables of talent bringing in their own drums.
or even worse, having to resort to a drum machine becuase the client is a solo songwriter who doesn't happen to have a drumkit in their back pocket.

so, what i am looking at is a drum kit that will be usable in context of an inexpensive home studio.
i'm after the type of kit that any drummer can sit at.
at my level, they're all amatuers. got a problem with that?
i have considered going for an electronic kit, but i dont know that it fulfills the usability issue.
something that i can learn to get any sound out of. not after the ultimate. what type of ultimate, anyway? metal, or jazz? it has to do the lot.

i was planning on totally strapping down a 5piece kit (22"kik etc), killing all resonance and slowly picking up a few extra crash's and rides and snares for a range of flava's.

it'd be nice to have the time to get the kit tuned to the song - something i rarely have the pleasure of because the talent always takes to long to set up their own kit.

what are peoples thoughts? comments?

:)

chris.

[Kris]

I would suggest a couple of snares at least if it has to cover a wide variety of musical styles. On the electronic side, if you have amateur drummers then a v-drum kit with a set of good samples (maybe drumkit from hell and all it's variables) will be better for your sanity in the long run. Drummer out of time? It's midi, quantise it. Sounds good to me.

[Martinez]

Ahh,

Ive been looking into this myself just recently for the same reason.

was reading an interview with Mike Bordin and He likes yamaha kits because they are all hand made by yamaha.

where as other manurfactures tend to get their blanks pre made in taiwan and the like and take it from there.
same goes for the hardware.

Different materials have different sounds as you would guess,
but price is not a clear indicator as to the sound cuz quite often they make sa kit up to fit a certain price range.

someone somewhere said something about smaller drum sizes being abel to acheive a deeper sound on acount of the fact that the smaller size drums can be tuned lower with out ringing to long and don't sound dead.

Skins are another thing aswell to consider since the skins can make a crap kit sound pretty decent.

by far the most important thing though is tuning.

there are all sorts of tricks involved to getting all sorts of different sounds
and different tunnings in different intervels between the different drum types.


but you should really do your research on this one to find the best possible kit for the sound you want.

as far as getting a kit that does it all, thats really up to the skins and the tunning.

make sure you vist a few different sites on the subject.

one of the ones I found had info about timbers, tunning and construction aswell as other stuff.

hope this helps.

[Martinez]

You can have a few different snare aswell.

seeing as they don't seem to pricey.

[Kris]

If you're looking for snares then you should check this out.

Paul Warry is his name - he operates a small drum building business from his house and while the majority of his work is building ALL of Slieshman's drum shells, he runs his own thing as well called IR custom drums. He builds drums by hand. He is the best guy to work with and will build probably anything you asked for I reckon - even Jarrah if you wanted. He specialises in Australian Hardwoods (IR stands for Indigenous Rhythms) and can get a hold of some incredible high-density laminates for cool finishes too. His price is good, craftsmanship excellent and knows plenty about drums and drum building but doesn't talk the phone piece out of your hands like many of these instrument building "freaks" can. His contacts are below...

http://www.drumbuilder.netfirms.com

paulwarry@hotmail.com

[toadmark]

For what it's worth ...... I've just been through the same thing myself. I'm not a drummer, but I'm sick of these young fellas coming in to the studio with their pile of wet carboard boxes and then whinging about the drum sound. I ended up with a Pearl Masters BRX Birch kit, cos I couldn't find anything bad about them on the internet, found lots of good about them AND because Pearl have just released the Reference Series the Masters have all dropped in price :wink: . Awesome kick drum! I got a Pearl Masters Maple snare to go with it. Have gone Zildjian "A" Custom Cymbals, which seem to be good all-rounders, however "K" Custom seem to be more popular for Jazz stuff. I've got a sneaking suspicion that I might end up with some of those too.

I guess you'd be unlucky to go wrong with any of the major brands higher end product; Yamaha, Pearl, Gretch, Ludwig etc etc etc.

If you haven't already - look into leasing the kit as opposed to outright purchase, it may have some tax benefits depending on your situation.

[toadmark]

Check this thread out ....

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=51023

[Ausrock]

Kris,

The IR/Sleishman connection..........who told you that info and how long ago?

[Ausrock]

Kris,

Further to your PM, just to correct somethings...............

Don Sleishman at one time used Jasper shells from the US before Jasper went out of business, consequently nearly ALL his drums have used Keller shells from the US, Paul Warry only for a limited time, supplied a small number of kits that required "exotic" veneer finishes.

Because of some issues with Keller quality I believe Sleishman were looking for a different source but whether that has eventuated or not I don't know.

Chris

[Kris]

I stand corrected.

kris.

[Ausrock]

Chris - mfdu,

As with most recording oriented things there are no hard and fast rules......a kit that sounds good in one room may just as easily sound like crap in a different room, a kit can sound different with two different players, a kit can.............yeah well, you get the idea :-).

Some people will advocate one brand or model over another, a ply kit over a stave, maple over birch or mahogany (lauan), etc., etc., what you really need to do is if at all possible, try different kits in your room until you find one that you are comfortable with and make sure you record them when trying them out. Don't get involved in marketing hype (every manufacturer dishes it out) and don't buy a kit just on someone else's say so..........use your own ears.

Mate, I can write a lengthy discourse on timber types, shell construction options, thicknesses, etc., and the general effect each has but it will mean diddly-squat unless it can be applied to your specific situation.

Cheers,

ChrisO

[mfdu]

i've been reading that link toadmark put up - http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=51023

the more i think about it, the more i reckon what i need AT THE MOMENT isn't the perfect drum kit, but the ability to make a basic drummer happy enough to surprise themselves with their performance.

so yeah, a few snares,a couple of kik pedals, a range of tom sizes and cymbals. a RED kit that i can tune per-client (whenever i can get my wife off it).

have enough to get the best out of the dummer.

whaddya think?

chris.


(red?)

[Ausrock]

No, you don't need a perfect kit, you need the right kit, a kit that will always sound good in your room.

[mfdu]

bewdy Ausrock.

i was hoping that was one of the responses i would get.

as mfdu grows, so too does the equipment. eventually there will be a point where the basic tools get replaced/upgraded/customised. but the tools have to be there in the first place.

and without a drum-kit, i have nothing to practice mic'ing.

but most of all - my wife wants one. a red one.


only one person mentioned electronic kits. the comments i've had in the past indicate they're too particular in feel - a basic drummer wouldn't be able to walk in and make one sing. but if anyone thinks otherwise, i'd love to hear . . .

chris.

[Martinez]

a friend of mine's got one.

its cool for jamming, but they just don't sound as good as the real thing to my ears!

Get a real one like so you can practice micking it and mucking around with tunnings.

think about how much fun you could have.

[mfdu]

ooooh you're so right martinez.

what i really want to play with isn't the full rock kit with every component mic'd.

i want to practice my PZM kik snare/LDC overhead techniques, i want to play with ORTF, i want to practice mixing to stereo pair out the console onto hdd so i can be confident enough for when i need any partcular sound.

that's what i'm lookin forward to. more fun than spinning a midi cable down the hall fom an electronic kit.

chris.

[OzDrum]

The "MOST" important thing about any drum kit is head selection and tuning.. it's amazing how a great kit can sound awful with bad heads and tuning and how a crap kit can sound pretty good with decent heads and tuning. I've also found 95% of drummers cannot tune a drum to save themselves!

The new Pearl Reference series drums sound great if you can afford them! I've got a Pearl Masters Studio kit which is mine but gets used on a lot of sessions, the kick drum sounds awesome on this thing! I have a couple of different snare drums - Ludwig Black Beauty 14x6.5"(steel), Tama Superstar (Birch) 14x6.5" and Pearl Chad Smith (steel) 14x5". All give a different tone to different songs (and different drummers!). I try and push most drummers into using this kit if theirs is below par, or I usually end up spending some time tuning their kit before the session.

It really depends on your budget, are you prepared to spend $3-$10k on a reasonable 5pce kit (shell pack) or will you be better off spending a hundred bucks on some tuning DVD's or books and really learning how to tune a drum kit. Keep in stock some drum heads that you can talk the drummers with average heads into using (although they don't really work if you take them off and put them on a different kit again). Do a google search on "Prof Sounds Drum Tuning Bible" also.. some good info on there..

Cheers
Geoff Mison

[mfdu]

bring on the Drum Tuning 1.01 session.

i think the best money and time i can spend is on decent drum heads, and learning how to properly tune the li'l critters.

remember - my drum room is the loungeroom. or the bedroom. or the kitchen (if the client needs some extra metallic resonance i can open the cutlery drawers!??!)
acoustic treatment = well placed cushions and doonas.

in the space i have, i kind'a feel spending primo money on the kit would be a bit like tracking a U87 through a be*&^$%er pre and soundblaster A/D's . . . a bit of a shame.

taking into account the idea of using smaller drums, how would this be as a starting point - 20 x 14 bass drum 10 x 8 12 x 8 toms 14 x 14 floor tom & 14 x 5.5 wood snare drum. add a steel snare and that'd be a start.

anyone got any low-end manufacturer preferences?????? (sub-$800 even? - mapex, tama, boston, percussion plus, ashton, power beat ?)
you can spend my $3000 all you like. but i can't, because i don't have $3000. and if i did, it'd go onto A/D's.


chris.

[PeterR]

thin cymbals too?

I've always liked a thin (piccolo) snare with nice thin cymbals and thin sticks for inexperienced drummers. Lessens the damage of a potential basher in a small room.

[mfdu]

i'm just going to have to try everything i can get my hands on and do what each individual session needs.

i suspect that no matter what i get first, there'll be someone who is not happy.

in time i'll have enough to choose from.

i guess that's why i still have my first large diaphragm condensor. it's a dog. great match for a cheap over-bright guitar amp.

to each song a sound, and each sound to it's song.

phew.

chris.

[Roy]

I think you're on the right track mdfu. Forget the electric kit- get it out of your "possibilities list". I've got $10,000 worth of electric kit and never ever use it live or in the studio. I would sooner use my old, old Maxtone kit that's literally falling apart. But after many kits and tens of thousands of dollars I now have a TAMA Star Classic- very nice, always sounds awesome but bloody expensive.

It's not hard to make a real kit sound good with practise. But don't go for the small drums. I suppose it depends what sound you're after, but it's almost impossible to get a big sound out of a small drum. It's a scientific thing.

For you're application I'd offer the advice of more snare drums, cheaper kit. Standard 22" kicks are versatile and easy to get a good fat sound out of with practise and technique. Toms are similiar but as their the least hit drum in a kit it's not as big a deal. Snare drums on the other hand can really reveal their weaknesses in a recording. It's the backbone of a recording that drives a song (contrary to the common belief that it's the kick drum).

But after you've spent all you're money, time, and effort into getting the perfect kit and perfect tuning, you just need a crap drummer with his "virgins" control to come along and screw the whole vibe up!
hahaha!


But seriously that'd be my 2 cents. Hope it's worth that much. :D

[mfdu]

roy, thats a mighty valuable 2cents.

you and Ausrock are giving me just the kind of heartwarming responses that a lad needs this time of year.

so a 5piece rock kit (as opposed to the "fusion" sizing) will sound good if i have the ability to make it sound good.

yeah - the place for my money is more in being able to supply a variety of snares and cymbals.

its good to hear you say that - whilst that was what i suspected i didn't want to go out and make it so without checking around first. as we all know, you can't trust a sales person.

cheers and thanks. hopefully i'll be posting some clips later and you can all say "how did you make a cheap-ass kit sound so good?"

aah yes.

chris.

[Martinez]

I know its an expensive option, but.....

why don't you hire a few kits before you commit.

you can hire one kit at a time, buy some skins, take the kits home replace the skins and mess with the tunnings!
see what sounds best at your place before you buy.

then you can try out the different sizes too before you buy.
remember..... what someone says sounds better is what they think sounds better to them and may not match the sounds in your head.

[Adam Dempsey]

Mine, a $400 4 piece Maxwin (cheap Pearl) kit: 20" kick, 13" & 16" toms tuned well (as well as it can) with a Pearl snare and cymbals (A & A customs for me) suffices. There are 22"/5 piece equivalents which, tuned well and in a room with enough liveliness, would be fine. I had the bearing edges professionally sanded. You could try John Bonham's trick of tuning to the shell's resonant frequency - generally impossible to do on cheap drums!

But for anything critical I'd certainly hire a nice birch or maple kit. Definitely keep a range of snare drums, but most drummers would prefer to bring their own anyway.

[Martinez]

I take my hat off to you Chris!

because your not willing to settle for the "thataldo pig" mentality.
don't settle for second best, don't stop till you get those sounds that you can hear in your Head!

you've got a great attitude man, the world is your oyster.

[mfdu]

lets avoid talking about the contents of my head. thats a whole different topic.

i know this - the kit i get is not for one sound, one style, one method of micing.

it's going to be whatever is needed. and as far as i am seeing it, it's only me that can make the kit spread that far - the manufacturer certainly ain't going to put a badge on it saying "this is cheapish but will do any sound you want"

sooner i get out to the shops and get it, the sooner my wife will be on the throne, and i'll be learning all the variables of tuning, micing, room placement, baffles, mic selection, eq compression and whatever else i can think of.

thanks for pitching in and having a chat about all of this. much appreciated. i just couldn't go and do this without a spot of research . . .

it's gonna be a bangin' christmas.

chris.

[scott]

I would spend the bulk of my money on snare and cymbals. The paiste and ziljian websites have sound samples that should steer you in the right direction.

A good little trick that I use is Checking out all the new ones in the stores then finding equivalents second hand. It wont tell you what it will sound like at your place, but you can at least compare the brands/models.Yamaha stage custom is a great cheaper kit and the Pacific/DW are also good for the money.

The thing I always find holding me back drum sound wise is the room size. It can be a real struggle to get the sound you want with the small room limitation, even if the room sounds good the volume can prevent you from getting the most out of it. You sound like you know your spaces really well which is as important as any of the above.

[Gavin]

Yeah I also think that 2nd hand is the way to go. I bought a pearl kit for $500, with new skins it sounds amazing! The drummer in my band owns a $20,000 DW kit which does sound fantastic, but for some songs that we recorded recently we went with the toms from the pearl kit!
Spend the money on good cymbals, because there is nothing you can do to change the sound of crap cymbals, but there are heaps of things you can do to cheap drums!
Also, i highly recommend the 12 inch recording hats from Zildjin, sound great and don't dominate the OH sound.

Have fun!

[philly]

Hi all...
Sorry if I sound a bit dim but when you refer to maple or birch drums, does that mean that every "course" or "lamination" of the drum is birch or maple? or do they use bending ply for the shells and finish inside and out with a maple or birch veneer?

[Ausrock]

Philly,

Normally, shells are made out of one particular species, be it Maple, Birch, Mahogany (Lauan), etc., and while the normal construction method is to lay one ply (veneer) at a time, there are examples of people using quality thin Birch 3 ply to save on "build time" and while it works quite well, it does leave some inherent disadvantages.

It is accepted that a higher grade ply or "finish" ply is used for the inside and outside layers which are visible and a lower grade makes up the rest of the layers. Kits that are finished with a synthetic "wrap" frequently use the lower grades for all layers. The only time you find differing species is when an "exotic" species finishing veneer is used on the outside.

That said, at least one manufacturer now has one model/range where they are using mixed species in their drums.........they have their marketing hype to justify their reasoning for doing this but so far, I believe for each one of their "arguments" there is an equally valid opposing view.

While there's no doubt that timber type, etc., will contribute to the sound of a drum, I believe there are numerous other factors (head choice, tuning, player ability, etc., etc.), which can over-ride the advantages of one species over another................ie: the best quality shells can sound like crap if all other factors aren't of reasonable standard.