kick drum size

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kick drum size

Postby rick » Fri May 27, 2011 5:09 pm

ok lets start with the size of your kick drum
it seems to me every kick drum i have ever recorded or mixed had me boosting bottom end
except the big 24 " mothers

whats wrong or right with a 24 " drum beside you cannot fit it in your car boot ?
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Re: kick drum size

Postby ChrisW » Fri May 27, 2011 5:32 pm

They say it's 'slow to speak'.
I've got a slow foot anyway, so it doesn't effect me much, but I know the guys who like to play a lot of bass drum notes like smaller bass drums, 20" or 22". There is less air to move, so the response is faster.
If I was doing an album I'd probably have 22" and 24" bass drums on site. Choose the right sound for each song.
My studio standard is 22", although I agree, these days with a propensity to sample enhance, even a 22" can sound a little lacking in the punch and low end dept.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby rick » Fri May 27, 2011 5:44 pm

i read the other day that cause the 24 center is that much higher you need a longer pedal which makes things harder to play - is that a real issue ?
are there longer pedals for each drum size?
do people use them really i have never noticed ?

i have a drum mag that has a riser for the kick drum or maybe its for the pedal to get it in the exact right spot?

this is all news to me - the further i go down the well the more there is to see

thoughts?

depths ?
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Re: kick drum size

Postby ChrisW » Fri May 27, 2011 6:01 pm

Well the center of any drum is somewhat a dead spot.
I'm into deader bass drums anyway, so with a 22" I'm happy for my pedal to hit centre on.
Purists/deeper thinkers like to hit just above or below centre, so a regular pedal on a 24" is just fine.
The bass drum 'risers' I've seen have been to raise up the batter side of smaller bass drums, like a 16".
You don't want your pedal to strike too close to the edge.
So in short, dead centre is ok by me, but slightly above or below is the official advice from drummers with more cred than me.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby Chinagraf » Fri May 27, 2011 6:16 pm

I have a 20 that is very punchy and can have good bottom if you get far enough away. Problem is spill, so you need a kick tunnel.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby ChrisW » Fri May 27, 2011 6:36 pm

Dang.
I've been looking for a nice Drouyn kit for years.
Missed out on a couple on Ebay, one with an amazing assortment of odd sizes.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby danander11 » Fri May 27, 2011 7:30 pm

24's move a large volume of air.. meat! Gotta love it. Chris is right in that it does 'play' a bit differently but can be played with speed and clarity with a bit of practice. I personally have never played a 18 or 20" deep model, but I do love the 16 deep.

Of the 22's I've owned, They're great but you start looking for a balance to get the depth. Live I like using the D6 for a mic, and a Kick-Port in the front head. The kick-port gives a boost at around 30z to give you a sense of depth and 'meat' and it works surprisingly well.. I don't record with it though. I'll try again with a D6 and see if I like that ay better than the last time I tried.

With a 22, I definitely like a front head on it.. Tuned sympathetically with the batter head you can get a great sound out of them.. I like a reso head with a bit of dampening, or a super thin head with a full-sized decal on it.

The mic hole on any kick) I try to limit to 4" as I read awhile back that at 4" the drum thinks it still has a full head on it. Anything larger and you start losing some of that synergy.. (not a very scientific explanation but it made sense at the time). With the Kick-Port, you have to have from 5.25 to 5.5" to be able to fit the appliance. It's easy to put in and take back out as you need.

That's just me though... and my $0.02

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Re: kick drum size

Postby ChrisW » Fri May 27, 2011 8:24 pm

Yes, I've had an association with Bob Gatzen.
He has some great videos on YouTube by the way, about all kinds of drum issues, especially heads and tuning.
Anyway, he's extensively tested heads, recorded different set ups and computer analyzed the results.
He claims the optimal port (hole in the front head) is 4" diameter. Anything much bigger than that and he claims you might as well remove the front head.
I don't quite buy that, but I try to limit my mic hole between 4" and 6".
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Re: kick drum size

Postby ChrisW » Fri May 27, 2011 8:25 pm

anguswoodhead wrote:He has a full Drouyn kit - I could see if he wants to sell it if you're intersted - he probably doesn't but you never know. ;;)


Well I guess so.
It depends what it is, sizes etc...
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Re: kick drum size

Postby rick » Fri May 27, 2011 8:45 pm

d6 is that the audix one ?
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Re: kick drum size

Postby danander11 » Fri May 27, 2011 9:04 pm

rick wrote:d6 is that the audix one ?


Yep. inexpensive and fast to get working for a kick.. I like it a lot better than I do the D112 or Beta 52..

(I'm not in the same league as most of you guys so these are my choices).
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Re: kick drum size

Postby rick » Fri May 27, 2011 9:14 pm

somebody told me a while ago the audix was his fet 47 replacement for kick but i forgot the number
they look cool though
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Re: kick drum size

Postby obutcher » Fri May 27, 2011 11:26 pm

I recently bought a D6 because I find it to be very versatile. Outside the drum it picks up a huge amount of low end and inside the drum it's very clicky. Move it only 1-2cm and you can get a completely different tone. It's very rare that I use it and someone says they don't like it. Use it for kick out with an M88 in and you're onto a winner.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby danander11 » Sat May 28, 2011 12:46 am

obutcher wrote:I recently bought a D6 because I find it to be very versatile. Outside the drum it picks up a huge amount of low end and inside the drum it's very clicky. Move it only 1-2cm and you can get a completely different tone. It's very rare that I use it and someone says they don't like it. Use it for kick out with an M88 in and you're onto a winner.


I've heard that said about them, (being clicky)... but I haven't noticed that. I use felt beaters and place the D6 just inside the front head pointing about half-way between the shell and the impact point, and a little below. I'll sort out my subkick thing one of these days or go to something else I reckon.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby stosostu » Sat May 28, 2011 1:54 am

I played for many years with a drummer who used a Pearl kit with a 26" kick, boy did that have some bottom end penetration. He was a great drummer, used a lot of kick and never had trouble pushing us along all night. The kit was in burnt orange, so it was not only audibly loud, but visually loud as well. Never had the chance to record it and, unfortunately, he was killed last year whilst riding his bike for exercise, by an unlicenced driver trying out his home made supercharger................................just damn.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby rick » Sun May 29, 2011 3:43 pm

so what happens to the tone of a big mother kick drum if you put sand bags in it to stop it moving ?
seems like it should be doing something bad but i have never stopped to find out the whys and whats
less difference in smaller drums .. more ?
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Re: kick drum size

Postby ChrisW » Sun May 29, 2011 4:48 pm

I would put sandbags in front, rather than in.
I will put a small pillow inside my bass drum if it rings too much.
The biggest factor in sound are the two heads IMO.... head choice, how they are tensioned and whether you have a front head, and if you do whether the front head has a mic hole (port) and how big that hole is.
Also, the surface the drum is sitting on.
I just did a session in a wood room, which should have been good, but the wood frame structure carried on throughout the building and somehow took all the low tone away from my drums and into another room..... maybe the kitchen!
I find a small drum riser can be nice for tone from your drums.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby danander11 » Sun May 29, 2011 6:13 pm

ChrisW wrote:I find a small drum riser can be nice for tone from your drums.


I came across something just a little while back, (maybe in AT?), where this fellow had made a small riser for drums that has retractable wheels. They set the kit up on it then 'drive' it around the room to wherever the kit sounds best. lift the wheels and mic it up. Cool idea.. if you have the room.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby rick » Sun May 29, 2011 6:20 pm

it is essential i reckon the studio drum riser - gets the sound out of the floor
makes the drummer feel cool as well cause he is on a riser
its been going on as long as recording drums has
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Re: kick drum size

Postby ChrisW » Sun May 29, 2011 6:40 pm

They used to have a high riser at Air Studios in Oxford St (Central London). I fell off it once, which did my ego no good at all.
The drum sound was killer though.
I love the idea of the riser on wheels.
That probably works best with the four mics (cables-wise) not the 32 mics (four on toms) approach.
Just kidding. :-*
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Re: kick drum size

Postby rick » Sun May 29, 2011 6:55 pm

nah the great thing about the riser is you can put lots of the stands on the floor and the drums dont interfere with them ( resonance)
at festival we had three risers one for the hammond c3 one for the in house sonor kit and one for whatever kit came in ( which i actually helped make because we were sick of the sonor sitting in the corner in pieces because the riser was for the"bands kit " )
so anyway you could set up the drumkits on wheels and move it around the room untill the room mics or the kit sounded right

the strange thing is they built a huge drum room which was great ( in a powerstation kind of way ) and about the time i left it became a no go space ( grunge had hit aust big time ) - nobody ever used it again and the risers dissapeared and the drums were always put in the same spot whenever i popped in for a chat

i dunno why that happened - just remember it did tonight
while trying to remember how many drum risers we had .

i was always going to build two risers for the new place .. i better build three now
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Re: kick drum size

Postby rick » Sun May 29, 2011 6:58 pm

but i have seen so many sand drums inside kick drums not just pillows
anybody care to figure out what and why
i cannot ever remember putting one in or taking one out but it is done
...?

dont worry chris i am building up to asking about gorilla snot :)
maybe next week
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Re: kick drum size

Postby Mazystar » Sun May 29, 2011 8:09 pm

I remember doing some work experience at Drum Worx in Brisbane many moons ago. I was fortunate enough to be asked to assist the drum tech on several clinics, Simon Phillps, Greg Bissonette and Dennis Chambers. Whilst setting up for the Dennis Chambers clinic Dennis had issues with the bass drum 'floating'; even though adjustments had been made on the Bass Drum spurrs the Bass drum would float when played at Dennis speed. This peaved Dennis off and the first thing he asked was where are the sand bags!!! Whilst assisting Dennis with this he made mention that the sand bags asssist with weighting the drum to ensure consistency with his technique. We placed sandbags on the outside and in the drum. I remember thinking at the time that the Bassdrum changed tone, seemd more punchier after the placement of the sandbag inside, and figured this was due to the redution of air based on the addition of the sandbag?
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Re: kick drum size

Postby rick » Sun May 29, 2011 8:39 pm

ok so i am not going mad
good enough for simon phillips !

truth be told i havent actually stuck my head in a kick drum nor miked up a drum kit for about 5 years !
( the age of my oldest kid) but he is at school now the next one to follow - then i can start spending my nights with grown up "little kids" again .. who can wait
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Re: kick drum size

Postby audioio » Sun May 29, 2011 11:59 pm

danander11 wrote:I came across something just a little while back, (maybe in AT?), where this fellow had made a small riser for drums that has retractable wheels.

Wasn't that our very own Mr Linear?

rick wrote:good enough for simon phillips !

Is it true that Simon Philips had mics mounted in his drums, so all one had to do was plug in the cables to get the "Simon Philips drum sound"?

Could be a myth.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby Jonathan Kristian » Mon May 30, 2011 1:19 am

My Sonor designer series has a 24" kik. It weighs a ton and unless you own a station wagon or a van its never going to leave your studio but I love it! I have been using a Heil pr40 inside and a CAD m179 outside both through an api3124. More often than not i actually have to take some bottom end out there is so much, other than that i barely use any eq.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby rick » Mon May 30, 2011 9:40 am

sonors are interesting huh ?
while the rest of the world have been building egg shell thin drums that quite often end up looking egg shaped ie no longer round
sonor in typical german style build really thick overengineered and super heavy drums claiming that they must stay truley round even when they are hit to sound great and consistant

i have heard some monster sonor kits but i have also watched drummer after drummer turn there collective noses up at them ..
thoughts ? experiences?
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Re: kick drum size

Postby ChrisW » Mon May 30, 2011 10:39 am

Yes, as far as I'm aware Simon Phillips does carry an entire rig, including mics and all the engineer has to do is plug them in.
Personally I like to defer to the studio and the engineer who is experienced there, but Simon is a class act all the same.
Regarding small risers, my pal Bob Gatzen came up with a product which he says benefits both the sound and the ergonomics for drummers:
http://www.drumframe.com/

Sonor drums are beautifully made and obviously sound good. My only com plaint is the price. For that kind of money I can buy a completely hand built, made in Oz or made in America kit, the latter is what I use (N&C).
Jack De Johnette is one of my all time fave drummers and he's been a Sonor endorser for many years. That tells me they are great sounding drums.
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Re: kick drum size

Postby Kurt » Mon May 30, 2011 11:19 am

Maybe the Sonor base range is pricey but I don't think their top of the line stuff is that different to other "custom shop" type kits. I know a drummer here in Canberra who bought a top of the line kit from them, he had to wait several months while they actaully built it, it was finished in the colour he chose. I think it was around $9k all up, 2 x 24" and 5 toms (no snare I think).
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Re: kick drum size

Postby Drumstruck » Mon May 30, 2011 11:29 am

If I had to choose the BD that responds best to (my) foot action it would be a 20" - with that said I currently have an 18" and a 24" on my double kit - the 24" took a while to get used too (different rebound characteristic) but now I really like it as the primary and the 18" as the secondary. I'm using Axis sonic hammer beaters as they have a fore / aft adjustment as well as height adjustment and a ball & socket on the beater head to get the angle of strike perfect.

Drouyn? I borrowed a Drouyn kit for a studio session in 1979 and it was stolen after the session (well, the whole car was stolen). Had to pay the guy for that which really hurt back then.

If your stool on the same piece of carpet as the BD and using good spurs it doesn't go walkies quite as much, but it sure sux when it does (same with the HH). Years ago I used to tie the BD to the stool with some rope (sounds funny but it works....).

Sonor is an interesting brand - distinctive sound and high quality - plenty of great drummers use them - as a generalisation they sound nice and meaty but not a lot of sustain on the records I've heard them on. :ymparty:
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