The man himself... Glyn Johns

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The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Wiz » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:58 am

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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby The Tasmanian » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:27 pm

Interesting
- I note that he insist he drives his mic pre's 10db hotter - and reduces the fader by 10db.
This mic pre compression would add a lot to the sound - unless its a SSL or some characterless modern clean preamp.
This is one of the secrets to a great vocal sound too.
I love consoles with 10db steps on the preamps - it forces you into using the extra 10db, and the sound is usually so much better running the preamp hot - same on Guitar sounds.
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Thirteen » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:39 pm

There is some irony in that considering the location, the subject and the talent in that room you can't hear the sound on the video.
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Wiz » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:10 pm

The reason I posted it... is because its for the first time, I have seen anything that one could consider "definitive" about the postioning of the mics.

Everything else I had read, was internet folklore, in a way.

Its interesting, his devil may care (perhaps a little overdone for the audience) attitude.


Also, perhaps setting 10dB higher than what you would expect when gain staging, is a little, shall we say, format dependant. Depends on what you are recording to..I can just see someone, driving their converters into the red, and wondering why it doesnt sound good.. 8)

But, how do you think the studio owner must have felt standing there, and he says, I wouldnt make a cup of tea on your console..


video was interesting on many levels.... just one of which was recording drums... LOL
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby The Tasmanian » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:58 pm

But its not format dependent - as you are lowering the level again by 10db (roughly) on the fader.
10 db gain past the proper gain stageing, puts the preamp into distortion and compression - and 10db is not subtle on nice old Neve's etc - which is a totally different sound to the three mic set-up with normal gain staging.

Ive never been really exited by the 3 mic set-up when I have tried it. But if I had seen this video beforehand, then I would have made damn sure the preamp was a Neve/Electrodyne/Quadeight running into overdrive (10db).
No wonder these guys did not like recording on even API's - 10db hotter on an API pre is not the same as a Neve, it gets more brittle the more it goes into overdrive.
All pre's sound different when clipping - you gotta know each one's limits, and where the sweet spots are when clipping
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby rightintheface » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:18 pm

I'm on the low end of the get scale here, but I've always used a two or three mic method by using the shitty old preamps in an old consumer cassette recorder and driving them just into the red. Always sounded way punchier than clean preamps to me. Love it!
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Wiz » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:20 pm

The Tasmanian wrote:But its not format dependent - as you are lowering the level again by 10db (roughly) on the fader.
10 db gain past the proper gain stageing, puts the preamp into distortion and compression - and 10db is not subtle on nice old Neve's etc - which is a totally different sound to the three mic set-up with normal gain staging.

Ive never been really exited by the 3 mic set-up when I have tried it. But if I had seen this video beforehand, then I would have made damn sure the preamp was a Neve/Electrodyne/Quadeight running into overdrive (10db).
No wonder these guys did not like recording on even API's - 10db hotter on an API pre is not the same as a Neve, it gets more brittle the more it goes into overdrive.
All pre's sound different when clipping - you gotta know each one's limits, and where the sweet spots are when clipping



You, of course, are correct about not clipping with the recording path, being, post fader. My bad. Wasnt thinking it through.


I dont think, I have ever heard a preamp compress. I have heard them distort of course. Interesting.

I have a 1073DMP here as well as NV500 TG500 99NV and a pair of baby animals, I cant really say I have heard any of them "compress", I have tried them through their full range of gain, to hear if there was any significant difference using pads to bring down the level. When you say compress, do you actually mean, compress as in reduce the dynamic range of stuff being played through it...? What sort of pre's could I expect to hear this on? What sort of gain reduction would we be talking about here? My 1073 DMP is supposedly a real 1073 ish preamp, what sort of gain level would it be required to be running at to pick up this? I may have to revisit.

You know what would be great, if next time you are doing something, if you could record a snippet of something, compressing and not compessing via preamp, only if you have the time... would love to hear what preamp compression sounds like.


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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby The Tasmanian » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:10 pm

Try it - its easy.
whatever preamp you have that is modeled off a vintage pre (must have transformers)
Get a signal, record a passage into your setup - take note of the peak level going in.
Then drive the pre 5-10db hotter, but reduce the output - attempt to get the same level into your machine.
(try it on a vocal - or a snare drum, or guitar)

You will note that the signal is now heavily compressed - even limited as a waveform.
And your preamp will dictate how much you can load it - you may only get 5db before it sounds great.

But - every pre does have a limit to how hard you can drive it - and how musical the outcome is.
Try it on a gentle lead vocal, and it opens up a whole new world of intimacy.
I'm sure that those amazing Rick Ruben albums with Johnny cash are done this way - (RCA 44) it brings the singer really close to the listener through a loaded mic pre compressing.

Some pre's just dont sound good (musical) when driven - and even then it is program dependent.
Some pre's cannot handle lots of bottom end when being driven - others get brittle.
Some get muddy when driven.
The Chandlers sound killer + 10db with the output lowered - one of my fave vocal/bass/kick pre's

Edit: stepped gain pots seem to do the job better than regular gain pots I have found.
Last edited by The Tasmanian on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Alistair » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:55 pm

Plus the 1073 is one of the best outboard distortion boxes. Send a bass out of your interface into the line input, crank it til it' filthy, back it off one click and trim it down and it's good to go. Keeps the bass huge and locked in place, plus generates a bit off distortion up around 4-5k that makes the bass audible even in a dense mix.
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Chris H » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:01 pm

A lot depends on the transformer also as a large part of the sound when preamps are driven is transformer saturation. I have a bunch of inline attenuators when driving my preamps into saturation and going direct from the pre output into the converter, ie not using a console.
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby ChrisW » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:33 am

Haven't had time to watch the vid yet, although I recorded with Glyn once, and he used his 3 mic set up.
Bear in mind, many of the classic Glyn recordings were made on vintage Helios, which is a very different sound to Neve.
I worked with him in the mid-80's, and I can't remember the console. Almost certainly not Helios, and most likely vintage Neve. The one thing I learnt was that other than moving the mics around and doing a bit of adjustment on the console, about 75% of the drum sound was down to the player.
With 3 condensers on the kit, all at a distance, the kit has to sound fantastic in the room, and has to sound good as a single entity. Then you have to play it in the right balance for the song. For example, you can't really adjust the hi-hats and cymbals, as they are being recorded by the (nominal) snare and floor tom mics.
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Wiz » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:51 am

The Tasmanian wrote:Try it - its easy.
whatever preamp you have that is modeled off a vintage pre (must have transformers)
Get a signal, record a passage into your setup - take note of the peak level going in.
Then drive the pre 5-10db hotter, but reduce the output - attempt to get the same level into your machine.
(try it on a vocal - or a snare drum, or guitar)

You will note that the signal is now heavily compressed - even limited as a waveform.
And your preamp will dictate how much you can load it - you may only get 5db before it sounds great.

But - every pre does have a limit to how hard you can drive it - and how musical the outcome is.
Try it on a gentle lead vocal, and it opens up a whole new world of intimacy.
I'm sure that those amazing Rick Ruben albums with Johnny cash are done this way - (RCA 44) it brings the singer really close to the listener through a loaded mic pre compressing.

Some pre's just dont sound good (musical) when driven - and even then it is program dependent.
Some pre's cannot handle lots of bottom end when being driven - others get brittle.
Some get muddy when driven.

The Chandlers sound killer + 10db with the output lowered - one of my fave vocal/bass/kick pre's


I gave this a crack yesterday arvo, using my 1073 DMP

aha 8)

I am gonna give this a run on all my transformer preamps, which is all of them except those in my interface... will be interesting.

thanks
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Wiz » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:52 am

ChrisW wrote:Haven't had time to watch the vid yet, although I recorded with Glyn once, and he used his 3 mic set up.
Bear in mind, many of the classic Glyn recordings were made on vintage Helios, which is a very different sound to Neve.
I worked with him in the mid-80's, and I can't remember the console. Almost certainly not Helios, and most likely vintage Neve. The one thing I learnt was that other than moving the mics around and doing a bit of adjustment on the console, about 75% of the drum sound was down to the player.
With 3 condensers on the kit, all at a distance, the kit has to sound fantastic in the room, and has to sound good as a single entity. Then you have to play it in the right balance for the song. For example, you can't really adjust the hi-hats and cymbals, as they are being recorded by the (nominal) snare and floor tom mics.



Great stuff


yes, 3 mics would make it hard to use Trigger :ymsmug:
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Chris H » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:12 am

................speaking of using a trigger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVa4q-YVjD8

also wonder what the mic technique was!
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby ChrisW » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:11 pm

Speaking of Helios....
I got to work in The Who's Battersea studio when it still had the original Helios console.
Gotta say I felt like I was in a historic space, as I thought Moonie was a wonderful drummer. The studio is the one used for the 'Who Are You' video, the one where Moon has his cans gaffa'ed to his head (and hair - ouch!).
I think Pete T. blames that kit explosion for his severe hearing issues.
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Re: The man himself... Glyn Johns

Postby Wiz » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:14 pm

Chris H wrote:................speaking of using a trigger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVa4q-YVjD8

also wonder what the mic technique was!



my guess, distance :)
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