Turtlerock Forum

Lucas wrote:Cheers,

I think a good stereo solution will be the way to go in future. I like the look of the VP88, clever stuff...
Problem is, I'm always working for someone else and am beholden to their kit.....

Looks like another gig kit investment....

In an ideal world, with unlimited time and resources, what approach would be taken then?

Lucas wrote:I had a student stage band thrown at me last night....

!

AlCraig wrote:

Lucas wrote:I had a student stage band thrown at me last night....

!

Unless you were mixing at the Ent Cent, why oh why would you even try to mic up a stage band. They are meant to be heard acoustically. Maybe one mic down front for solos.

Drumstruck wrote:Poor old SM57s - the whipping boy of the mic world.....

Chris H wrote:

Drumstruck wrote:Poor old SM57s - the whipping boy of the mic world.....

"whipping boy" - great song by Ben Harper, ......but I'd rather call the poor old SM57 the hammer of the mic world

Chris H wrote:

Lucas wrote:Cheers,

I think a good stereo solution will be the way to go in future. I like the look of the VP88, clever stuff...
Problem is, I'm always working for someone else and am beholden to their kit.....

Looks like another gig kit investment....

In an ideal world, with unlimited time and resources, what approach would be taken then?

First thing is If I'm on the desk, I think its ok to pull a bit of rank even when working for someone else........have the bits of gear you know get the job done in various applications, the way you work, especially mics. The way i work .... there are mics I simply leave in their cases because I hate the way they sound unless it's the vocalists choice; eg many mics with neodymium magnets are just too ringy for my ears and it's just plain hard work trying to make them sound decent.

With this particular company I am hired as a monitor engineer but am given the task of making all mic/placement decisions. I don't always get an awful lot of feedback (for want of a better word) on how the decisions I make impact on the FOH mix. I find myself scooting out the front when I can and listening to how those decisions have been interpreted.

The way I look at it, there are two approaches to the job. One is the less is better regarding the number of mics used, and the other is a full on multy mic setup.

One thing I find a bit of a mystery is how people on the job often seem to forget to take into account the fact that with more mics open on stage the gain before feedback gets lower, so the ideal is to use as few mics as possible to get the job done.

Not to mention the more distant mics the more phase interaction

So I start with the few is better approach and balance it with my idea of common sense when the plethora of other factors are taken into account. If I think I need to go a few steps to the multy mic setup then I would need to have planned well ahead and have enough Mics in the kit to do the job. Ideal would be a dozen Neuman KM 85's or 84's with the desk HPF engaged and these would be spaced between every two players or if shared by three players then positioned higher. If the players are near the drum kit for example this is where i would definitely try to get the mics closer to the players. If the neumans arn't available then a SDC that is on the darker side sound wise is preferable to say a dozen NT 5's as they are more on the bright side. With the more mic option I still start with the stereo mic out in front and as the band is playing add the close mics and blend to taste......sounds like I'm cooking up a recipie....... I have just finished making a "very nice if i say so myself" pasta salad and polished it off with a few other goodies and a Margaret River Leeuin Estate Sauvignon Blanc, so food is on my mind.....what was I saying.....oh yes the other thing with this approach regarding gain before feedback:
The success of this approach is also dependent on the correct tuning of the PA. The more well designed and accurately flat the speaker system, the higher the gain before feedback.While I'm thinking of it....... If anyone ever has time to talk to the man, Mike at Lorantz will give you an education on the subject with a minimum of prompting......most speaker systems with digital processing suffer from a diminished gain before feedback level yada, yada, maybe a minimal factor to many people when playing with thousands of watts but I think it counts significantly especially wher you are aiming for stellar results with amplified acoustic music something i hear many do a less than stellar job with.........it has always puzzled me why i have not ever read an interview with this local genius in the audio kingdom......
.....anyway once the PA is tuned then bring up each mic starting with the stereo and, with the eq flat, gain it up till it starts to ring, with the sweepable mids on the desk, cut the area that is feeding back just a few db. Do this with each condenser onstage before the band arrives. as you do each mic, mute the others. Once you have done em all, unmute and bring them to unity gain, raise the master to find out where the limit is before it takes off. Now in practice you wont be getting the individual mics near this level but you will be running the stereo mic close to max gain before feedback.

Unfortunately a sound check can sometimes be a luxury....

Ok, I know I have posted my little to do list and approach on this subject before, but lucas asked the question...... and I'm sure there are people here that could leave me for dust on the job but I hope this gets the discussion going so i can learn a few things.

photo(1).JPG

Lucas wrote:

Chris H wrote:

Lucas wrote:Cheers,

I think a good stereo solution will be the way to go in future. I like the look of the VP88, clever stuff...
Problem is, I'm always working for someone else and am beholden to their kit.....

Looks like another gig kit investment....

In an ideal world, with unlimited time and resources, what approach would be taken then?

First thing is If I'm on the desk, I think its ok to pull a bit of rank even when working for someone else........have the bits of gear you know get the job done in various applications, the way you work, especially mics. The way i work .... there are mics I simply leave in their cases because I hate the way they sound unless it's the vocalists choice; eg many mics with neodymium magnets are just too ringy for my ears and it's just plain hard work trying to make them sound decent.

With this particular company I am hired as a monitor engineer but am given the task of making all mic/placement decisions. I don't always get an awful lot of feedback (for want of a better word) on how the decisions I make impact on the FOH mix. I find myself scooting out the front when I can and listening to how those decisions have been interpreted.

The way I look at it, there are two approaches to the job. One is the less is better regarding the number of mics used, and the other is a full on multy mic setup.

One thing I find a bit of a mystery is how people on the job often seem to forget to take into account the fact that with more mics open on stage the gain before feedback gets lower, so the ideal is to use as few mics as possible to get the job done.

Not to mention the more distant mics the more phase interaction

So I start with the few is better approach and balance it with my idea of common sense when the plethora of other factors are taken into account. If I think I need to go a few steps to the multy mic setup then I would need to have planned well ahead and have enough Mics in the kit to do the job. Ideal would be a dozen Neuman KM 85's or 84's with the desk HPF engaged and these would be spaced between every two players or if shared by three players then positioned higher. If the players are near the drum kit for example this is where i would definitely try to get the mics closer to the players. If the neumans arn't available then a SDC that is on the darker side sound wise is preferable to say a dozen NT 5's as they are more on the bright side. With the more mic option I still start with the stereo mic out in front and as the band is playing add the close mics and blend to taste......sounds like I'm cooking up a recipie....... I have just finished making a "very nice if i say so myself" pasta salad and polished it off with a few other goodies and a Margaret River Leeuin Estate Sauvignon Blanc, so food is on my mind.....what was I saying.....oh yes the other thing with this approach regarding gain before feedback:
The success of this approach is also dependent on the correct tuning of the PA. The more well designed and accurately flat the speaker system, the higher the gain before feedback.While I'm thinking of it....... If anyone ever has time to talk to the man, Mike at Lorantz will give you an education on the subject with a minimum of prompting......most speaker systems with digital processing suffer from a diminished gain before feedback level yada, yada, maybe a minimal factor to many people when playing with thousands of watts but I think it counts significantly especially wher you are aiming for stellar results with amplified acoustic music something i hear many do a less than stellar job with.........it has always puzzled me why i have not ever read an interview with this local genius in the audio kingdom......
.....anyway once the PA is tuned then bring up each mic starting with the stereo and, with the eq flat, gain it up till it starts to ring, with the sweepable mids on the desk, cut the area that is feeding back just a few db. Do this with each condenser onstage before the band arrives. as you do each mic, mute the others. Once you have done em all, unmute and bring them to unity gain, raise the master to find out where the limit is before it takes off. Now in practice you wont be getting the individual mics near this level but you will be running the stereo mic close to max gain before feedback.

Unfortunately a sound check can sometimes be a luxury....

Ok, I know I have posted my little to do list and approach on this subject before, but lucas asked the question...... and I'm sure there are people here that could leave me for dust on the job but I hope this gets the discussion going so i can learn a few things.

photo(1).JPG

I vote for a bigger desk/core and a kit full of clip ons. Ain't gonna happen though as not enough of these occur to justify the expense. I have a feeling that a phase coherent stereo solution for the woodwinds combined with some 57s for the brass would do the trick. Fast to setup and hopefully provides better balance and control than a raft of 57s, Beta or otherwise.. I just need another stage band gig to give it a try...

Chris H wrote: my mentor said which was "Air is the best mixer".

stosostu wrote:"Air Mixing" maybe we could have contests like they do for Air Guitar......................