how much is too much?

Moderators: rick, Mark Bassett, gigpiglet

how much is too much?

Postby gigpiglet » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:27 pm

i am currently putting together a production for large/ important (if you are in the indie scene) tour later this year. i am production manager (my "paying" job!)
96channels for a live show (not an orchestra or anything like that - a band)
interesting. not passing judgement (yet) just saying its interesting.

i saw fleet foxes a few times over the new year period - their set up was huge. (and most studios would die for)
i was told the opera house show sounded great (though too loud) but i thought the other festival shows left a lot to be desired...

thoughts on huge set ups?
Gareth Stuckey
gigpiglet productions:presents:recordings
gigpiglet
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: sydney australia

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Lucas » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:04 pm

Can I see the input list?
Lucas Martin
Lucas
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Kurt » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:41 pm

I reckon things like a rock band using 96 channels is the band proving to themselves how important they are...

In almost every situation more than one mic on one thing is pure self-indulgence.
Kurt Neist
Chief cook and bottle washer - Metalworx
User avatar
Kurt
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 1:02 am
Location: Canberra

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Lucas » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:51 am

Kurt wrote:I reckon things like a rock band using 96 channels is the band proving to themselves how important they are...

In almost every situation more than one mic on one thing is pure self-indulgence.


Really? Does that include snare bottom, stereo/dual micing guitar cabinets, bass mic w/DI, Stereo overheads etc. I tend to like all of those things myself.
Lucas Martin
Lucas
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: how much is too much?

Postby The Tasmanian » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:12 pm

Surely they can cut back on the inputs & mics - and add a few more goodies to the rider ?
- or pay the crew a bonus
- or let the unemployed in for free and make very pretty girls pay double the entry fee (because normally they get to get in everywhere for free)
Only joking....

I'll be MDing a huge tour that will travel the world sometime late in the year/early next - and I will want as many choices as I can get for the sound to be amazing - no simple one mic jobbies.
As now CD sales are basically in cardiac arrest, I think the production focus should go into amazing sounding/looking shows and tours.
But ticket prices must rise as a result of such huge production costs
C h r i z t o w n o
The Tasmanian
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:04 am
Location: Deep in the woods....

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Kurt » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:46 pm

Sure, a few luxuries like stereo guitar mics and stuff is always good (never had a use for snare bottom mics but to each his own) But whichever way you cut it, 96 inputs is hardly in the spirit of "indie" music is it? I did sound for a support band a couple of years ago, the headliners had 4 lines per guitar amp, redbox and three mics. I watched ol'mate during the headliners set, he used one of the four lines for almost the entire set. He had mics and triggers on the kicks, he never pulled the kick mics up.

Options are nice but it seems a bit silly...

Lucas wrote:
Kurt wrote:I reckon things like a rock band using 96 channels is the band proving to themselves how important they are...

In almost every situation more than one mic on one thing is pure self-indulgence.


Really? Does that include snare bottom, stereo/dual micing guitar cabinets, bass mic w/DI, Stereo overheads etc. I tend to like all of those things myself.
Kurt Neist
Chief cook and bottle washer - Metalworx
User avatar
Kurt
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 1:02 am
Location: Canberra

Re: how much is too much?

Postby gigpiglet » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:05 pm

oh also - its all at 96k
;-)
only a few consoles in the world capable of that (and yep - not in aust) so we will be freighting consoles from the USA)

hey chris - if you need a PM for you big tour - don't hesitate to shout out, over the top, hard to deal with, massive demands. massive tour parties are my speciality (seriously, i do the jobs no one else wants, i find it really fun)
Gareth Stuckey
gigpiglet productions:presents:recordings
gigpiglet
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: sydney australia

Re: how much is too much?

Postby gigpiglet » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:06 pm

oh and just to address some of the other points.
this tour is making money (for everyone)
venues, promoters, crew and band are all making good dollar.
its not a matter of "this is unreasonable its never going to work" its all just a matter of interest.
Gareth Stuckey
gigpiglet productions:presents:recordings
gigpiglet
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: sydney australia

Re: how much is too much?

Postby ChrisW » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:17 pm

The Tasmanian wrote:As now CD sales are basically in cardiac arrest, I think the production focus should go into amazing sounding/looking shows and tours.
But ticket prices must rise as a result of such huge production costs



I had to chuckle a bit.
I did effectively a cover band tour that was $90 a ticket (iirc). A couple of months later Crowded House played the Hunter Valley for $90 a ticket. The usual Hunter Valley show ticket is $115 to $135 I think?

IMHO, live shows are poor value compared to recorded music.

But hey, I'm all for touring musicians and tour personnel getting paid more. Absolutely truly.

As to the 96 inputs, looking back the most enjoyable tours I've done were small bands (I mean few musos on stage) with limited extra technology.
Whitten
ChrisW
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1285
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:01 pm
Location: Hunter

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Lucas » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:23 pm

Gareth can we see the input list?
Lucas Martin
Lucas
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: how much is too much?

Postby gigpiglet » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:37 pm

sure - see attached now that i have it..
firstly - its not as many inputs as they had said in their advance
and secondly their are 2 drum kits so that chews some up.
so its not as terrible as i first thought... but still pretty funny

having said that... i can't seem to attach either excel or pdf files?? what can i attach??
Gareth Stuckey
gigpiglet productions:presents:recordings
gigpiglet
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: sydney australia

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Lucas » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:44 am

Maybe just cut and pste into a post.
Lucas Martin
Lucas
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: how much is too much?

Postby gigpiglet » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:40 pm

old fashioned


Input Instrument 48V Microphone
1 KICK IN x SHURE B91A
2 KICK OUT SENN 602
3 SNARE TOP SM57
4 SNARE BTM B57A
5 HAT X C42
6 RACK SENN 604
7 FLOOR 16" AUDIX D6
8 FLOOR 18" SENN 602
9
10 OH SR AEA 92
11 OH SL AEA 92
12 AUX BASS DRM BEYER M88
13 MIX OUT L RADIAL JDV
14 ROB AG DI RADIAL JDV
15 KICK #2 IN X SHURE B91A
16 KICK #2 OUT SENN 602
17 SNARE #2 TOP BEYER M201
18 SNARE BTM B57A
19 HAT X C42
20 RACK SENN 604
21 FLOOR 16" 8th day SENN 602
22 NORD DI RADIAL JDI
23 OH SR X AKG C414B
24 OH SL X AKG C414B
25 DRUM KEYS L RADIAL SW8
26 DRUM KEYS R RADIAL SW8
27 CONGA HI SENN e604
28 CONGA LO SENN e604
29 M GUITAR DI RADIAL JDV
30 M GUITAR AMP JOSEPHSON e22s
31 M ACOUSTIC DI RADIAL JDV
32 M VIOLA X DPA 4061/XLR SWITCH
33 VIOLIN DI X LR BAGGS PARACOUSTIC
34 VIOLIN MIC X DPA 4061/XLR SWITCH
35 ROB EL GIT X JOSEPHSON e22s
36 ROB EL GUITAR DI RADIAL PRODI
37 BASS DI X RADIAL J48
38 BASS MIC EV RE-20
39 COLIN ALTO (IN) X SHURE B98
40 LEWIS ALTO/SAPR MIC SENN 441
41 MICROKORG RADIAL JDI
42 BASS SAX (IN) X BETA 98
43 BASS SAX (OUT) X BETA 98H
44 BASS SAX CNTK X RADIAL J48
45 BASS SAX CNTK X RADIAL J48
46 TRUMPET DRY X DPA 4099T/GRACE/XLR SW
47 TRUMPET WET RADIAL JDI
48 FRENCH HORN BEYER M260
49 SYNTH X RADIAL J48
50 TROMBONE(S) BEYER M88
51 PERC X JOSEPHSON C42
52 JUSTIN KEYS RADIAL SW8
53 COLIN ALTO (OUT) X SHURE B98H
54 NYLON DI RADIAL JDV
55 NATIONAL DI RADIAL JDI
56 J EL GIT DI RADIAL JDV
57 J EL GIT AC30 X MOJAVE 201
58 J EL GIT BASSMAN ROYER 121
59 CLARINET SENN M88
60 VOICE MIKE X KSM 9
61 VOICE MATT SENN 431
62 VOICE SEAN SENN 431
63 SEAN AUX 935/RADIAL SD8
64 VOICE JUSTIN 1 SENN 431
65 JUSTIN AUX BEYER TGX 60
66 VOICE Rob SENN 431
67 VOICE Lewis SENN 431
68 VOICE Reggie SENN 431
69 SPARE VOCAL SENN 431
70 COLIN THROAT DI X RADIAL J48
71 VOICE JUSTIN KEY SENN 431
MON POD L 1/4F TO XLRF
MON POD R 1/4F TO XLRF
72 AMBIENT SL X AKG 451B
73 AMBIENT SR X AKG 451B
74 AMBIENT SL SHOTGUN X RODE NTG3
75 AMBIENT SR SHOTGUN X RODE NTG3
Gareth Stuckey
gigpiglet productions:presents:recordings
gigpiglet
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: sydney australia

Re: how much is too much?

Postby ChrisW » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:02 pm

What are the four 'ambient' mics for? Recording?
Whitten
ChrisW
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1285
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:01 pm
Location: Hunter

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Ben M » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:17 am

Ah ok.... So they're a Lofi indie band. :))

On a more serious note, what are Mojave mics like in your opinion Gareth? Anyone used them who can comment?
User avatar
Ben M
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1896
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:54 am
Location: Sydney and Kangaroo Valley, NSW

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Drumstruck » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:30 am

28 channels for drums/percussion - that sound about right - though I'd want a few more if it was a surround mix =))
Ian Dare
Drumstruck
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1513
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:37 pm
Location: Over the hills and far away

Re: how much is too much?

Postby tunetown » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:35 am

User avatar
tunetown
Frequent Contributor
Frequent Contributor
 
Posts: 922
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:33 am
Location: Sydney

Re: how much is too much?

Postby jkhuri44 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:33 am

that channel list looks pretty normal...indeed like you said mr piglet, not as crazy as once thought.
Jamil Khuri
Amusement & Audio Engineer
"it's not awesome unless its 240bpm with distorted 909 kicks!"
jkhuri44
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran
 
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:53 pm
Location: Dundas

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Lucas » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:26 pm

If you figure out how to attach, I'd love to see the stage plot
Lucas Martin
Lucas
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: how much is too much?

Postby ChrisW » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:14 pm

Three mics for one of the bass drums? (Two for use and one for emergency).
If I wasn't recording I would go with one mic.
With the four ambience mics I'm assuming recording?
Otherwise one could reduce the inputs by 5 to 10.
Whitten
ChrisW
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1285
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:01 pm
Location: Hunter

Re: how much is too much?

Postby gigpiglet » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:29 pm

ambient mics will be for ears
one guy must like shotguns, and one not?
or maybe its centre and wide pairs?
not for record though..
Gareth Stuckey
gigpiglet productions:presents:recordings
gigpiglet
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: sydney australia

Re: how much is too much?

Postby toddd » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:15 am

bon iver.
Todd Dixon
tmdixon [at] gmail [dot] com
toddd
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: sydney

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Ben M » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:19 am

Good call Todd.
I see names in the list that would suggest you are correct. Plus the latest album is not short of productionisation. :)
User avatar
Ben M
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1896
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:54 am
Location: Sydney and Kangaroo Valley, NSW

Re: how much is too much?

Postby toddd » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:03 pm

massive production on their latest.

i also heard about the double drummer and epic instrumentalism a while ago too...

i would think that goyte isn't too far from a live setup like this...
Todd Dixon
tmdixon [at] gmail [dot] com
toddd
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: sydney

Re: how much is too much?

Postby gigpiglet » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:09 pm

yep its bon iver..
gotye works on the little SD9 (they tour them front and back) so can't be this full on.. they are only 40ch boards i believe.
and i doubt (but don't know) that they are doing it at 96k like these boys.
Gareth Stuckey
gigpiglet productions:presents:recordings
gigpiglet
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: sydney australia

Re: how much is too much?

Postby Chris Wright » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:06 pm

For what it's worth, I saw the Bon Iver show in Red Hill Auditorium last week and was blown away by the sound. Knowing they used 75 channels doesn't detract from that in the slightest.
Chris Wright

Perth, WA
User avatar
Chris Wright
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:51 pm
Location: Perth, WA

Re: how much is too much?

Postby gigpiglet » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:27 pm

glad you like the show chris
we had a pretty tough day there...
but audio technik supplied a great system, and great crew.
now we have a few shows under our belts its sure getting easier!

awesome crew.
great tour.
loving it.

;-)
Gareth Stuckey
gigpiglet productions:presents:recordings
gigpiglet
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: sydney australia

Re: how much is too much?

Postby toddd » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:30 am

would really love to hear about how you pulled this show off at golden plains gareth....
Todd Dixon
tmdixon [at] gmail [dot] com
toddd
Registered User
Registered User
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: sydney

Re: how much is too much?

Postby gigpiglet » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:40 pm

that implies we DID pull it off.... ;-)
where you at the festival?

we loaded in at 8am the day prior. did our consoles/ cores/ plates/ etc etc and had a long day.
then back to a lovely motor inn in geelong for a night off. and back to the site to wait around on saturday.

basically - a lot of preparation!
any specific questions?
Gareth Stuckey
gigpiglet productions:presents:recordings
gigpiglet
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:10 pm
Location: sydney australia

Re: how much is too much?

Postby smash » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:11 am

What sort of desk did you use?


__________________
SImon "Smash" Ashby
smash
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 419
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:49 am
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney

Next

Return to Live Sound Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


cron