ribbon mic hire?

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ribbon mic hire?

Postby jkhuri44 » Thu May 31, 2007 7:38 pm

anyone know where i can rent a good ribbon mic that sounds good on a mesa dual recto??
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Postby jon.l.hunter » Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:44 am

I'm just round the corner in North Rocks
what kinda stuff are you recording?
how loud will it be?

I have an Apex Ribbon
it a fairly cheap mic but it is my
favorite mic on guitar amps
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Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:02 pm

gday john,

we'll be recording both riffs, and solos..and some stuff with ebow...

all high gain....let's put it this way...we're using a little labs std to put the amp in another room so we dont die...

:twisted:
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Postby Chris H » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:00 pm

jkhuri44 wrote:gday john,

we'll be recording both riffs, and solos..and some stuff with ebow...

all high gain....let's put it this way...we're using a little labs std to put the amp in another room so we dont die...

:twisted:


You will want a ribbon that can handle high SPL and the older ones generaly don't. Most engineers i know would be reluctant to hire a ribbon for really loud guitar amping.
The sE R1 ribbon mic can handle a max spl of 135dB so should be ok. So do the royers but they are expensive.

Its worth thinking that some of the most famous loud rock guitar sounds eg some of Led Zep's were recorded using small amps like the fender champ, and they are more ribbon friendly.
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Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:04 pm

we're using the recto coz we like the tone of that, rather than stomp boxes etc going through a smaller amp..

im asking about ribbons, coz i wasnt quite liking the sound with dynamics that much, ie. 421s and 57s sort of thing..i tried an akg414...didnt really like that much either.. :(

people rave about ribbons for loud electric guitar stuff, i've never used one before...thought this would be a good first time...
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Postby jon.l.hunter » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:45 pm

hmmm
my apex states it can handle 165db of sound pressure
but in practise I don't think this is true I've recorded loud guitar amps with it but I always have it back from the cab about 1 foot to a foot and a half cause it start to distort any closer ... this could be the output electronics distorting but given the ribbons fragility I'm very careful

as far as amp volume is concerned
many people prefer using a small class a amp
(5-15 watts) and running hard

I use an Orange tiny terror 7/15 watt amp
I can get those extremely thick overdriven sounds
at a volume that still allows me to stick a ribbon centre cone
right infront of the cab and avoid too much unwanted room sound

Jon
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Postby jkhuri44 » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:25 pm

gday john,

im still keen on trying out your Apex.

however, i am going to use the Dual Recto 100 W amp..

if your not sure your Apex can handle it...i suppose ill need to try something else...

can anyone else recommend a good micing combo that captures this amp smoothly for a smooth (in the high end/presence)...

??
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Postby jon.l.hunter » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:15 pm

You should try a ribbon
it will give you the smooth top end you want
I'm just not too keen on giving you mine!
No offence, I can just see it being a costly experiment
You should check out ebay for a cheap chinese ribbon

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Postby TimS » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:28 pm

jon.l.hunter wrote:You should check out ebay for a cheap chinese ribbon

Jon


Are Chinese ribbon knock-off's worth it?
I've seen a few Neumann copies on Ebay and I'd say they will never sound like a real Neumann.
However, what are the opinions of people on chinese copies (if you've ever used them!!)
I'd be interested to hear opinion/facts..
Is it worth it (the cost savings) for the enthusiast/semi-pro only or can you actually get a decent quality recording from them..

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Postby jkhuri44 » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:20 pm

gday john,

thats ok...i was posting on this forum to see if i could hire an AEA, or Royer ribbon...for recording...ie. mics designed to cop a 100 W beating...(i think)

mixmasters have both but i wanted to try locally first.
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Postby jon.l.hunter » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:20 pm

To TimS

Regarding cheap chinese Ribbons

I would say in my experience for the use of putting them in front of guitar cabinets they are not only worth it but I prefer it!

Here are my justifications

1: my cheap ribbon pulls the best sound out of my cabinet out of any mic combination I have ever tried. it just sounds like what I hear in the room. not hyped so if you want that cutting Block Party Tele sound this won't do it.

2: There really cheap so if I do happen to do somthing that damages the ribbon I'm not out of pocket 1-2K

3: many people have commented on how good the guitar sounds
since I've employed this technique

4: the very thought of a 414/57 mic combination which I know many people use ( i used to) now makes me want to puke

-PS
I don't doubt for a second that the AEAs and the Royers sound great in this application and I'm damn sure they're a lot more versatile but as a guitar cab mic for the money I love the Apex 210
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Postby jon.l.hunter » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:49 pm

Oh but that didn't really answer your question
I am not really qualified to answer this as I've never compared them
But my guess is that:
cheap chinese condensors mics sound nothing like Neumanns
& I'm sure that cheap chinese Ribbons sound nothing like RCAs
but that doesn't make them useless
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Postby mfdu » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:09 pm

[quote="jon.l.hunter"]
but that doesn't make them useless[/quote]

exactly!!!!

some mornings i like toast and jam. some mornings i like a fried egg.

does that diminish the value of toast and jam on those days i want a fried egg?

chris
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Postby Chris H » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:05 pm

mfdu wrote:
jon.l.hunter wrote:but that doesn't make them useless


exactly!!!!

some mornings i like toast and jam. some mornings i like a fried egg.

does that diminish the value of toast and jam on those days i want a fried egg?

chris
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What sort of jam??....and where the egs free range??.... How did "THEY" kill the pig????.....did it squeal.........oh and the toast is organic dark rye bread, right???......Hold on a minute.. what about the coffee......gotta be free trade,... and after work i love a beer, not just any beer, mind you.... my choice lately is the coopers dark ale. Sort of a cross between the coopers red label and the stout... a real malt sandwich....i just don't think about the water quality flowing down the Torrens these days.... and the Murray River?....what does little johnny howard think he's up to there??....
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Postby toddd » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:46 pm

hahhaahaha,

have you had a big week chris?
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Postby chris p » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:09 pm

Naa, mate - he's just had his 5th cup of coffee today
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Postby mfdu » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:31 am

mmmm that coopers dark ale is allright, huh?
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Postby Chris H » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:50 pm

All of the above....a few big weeks, and too much coffee, maybe just enough coopers...
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Postby jkhuri44 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:07 pm

found a place that will let me rent an RCA 77DX...

does y'all think that would be a good option (a few feet back) on a Mesa Dual Recto?
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Postby rick » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:41 pm

make sure you put a popper stopper in front of the microphone or the owner will not be very happy with you
other then that if its a good 77 and your good and putting it in the right spot it will sound amazing
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Postby jkhuri44 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:43 pm

awesome, thanks rick!

with ribbon mics (never used one before)..

whats the go with phantom power? does it blow ribbon mics up or something like that?

ill be pluggin her into a merc edition 1969 Drawmer pre...
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Postby jon.l.hunter » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:44 am

Nice one! I'll bet it will sound great
did you get it in NSW?

Phantom can destroy according to... hmm I'm not sure
it seems to be one of those bits of knowledge that seeps in some how

I've plug a new ribbon into a line that had phantom once and nothing
happened so it might be one for myth busters
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Postby jkhuri44 » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:21 pm

haha
i think ill ask the owner about that one....

im getting it from Haven Sound....they rent other mics, and outboard as well..
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Postby Chris H » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:25 pm

Depends on the mic. My STC has a transformer that can protect the mic if phantom goes to it. I still don't take any chances and have only once had phantom to it accidentally, (a few weeks ago) It was only for 20 seconds and no damage was done. If the mic has no transformer it can definitely. fry the ribbon Take no chances especially with someone else's mic. If your console only has global phantom power, you will have to come up with a dedicated pre for the ribbon mic
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Postby jon.l.hunter » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:34 pm

is there a website for Haven sound?
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Postby jkhuri44 » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:49 pm

doesnt seem so..

i got this guy's contact through Phil Punch of Electric Ave Studios

guy's called Glen Phimaster...

his email is:

soundsman@bigpond.com
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Postby Linear » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:32 pm

Depends on the mic. My STC has a transformer that can protect the mic if phantom goes to it. I still don't take any chances and have only once had phantom to it accidentally, (a few weeks ago) It was only for 20 seconds and no damage was done. If the mic has no transformer it can definitely. fry the ribbon Take no chances especially with someone else's mic. If your console only has global phantom power, you will have to come up with a dedicated pre for the ribbon mic


i'm not so sure that is correct - a transformer would not neccessarily protect it from phantom.

it is my undertstanding that phantom when applied correctly through a proper balanced cable would not affect a ribbon mic. the problem of blowing the ribbon would happen if the cable is wired incorrectly, or if the phantom voltage itself is wayward. worst case would be an intermittent cable - you'd be sending spikes of 48V AC through to the ribbon = damage with or without a transformer.

best idea is to avoid phantom with ribbons completely.

back to this topic, i've got a few ribbons (RCA 44, 2 x coles 4040, shure sm33 and beyer M260) but i wouldn't hire them out for the purposes of mic'ing up a excrutiatingly loud guitar cab. firstly, you may not break the ribbon but you sure as hell may stretch it. the result would be subtle degredation requiring replacement. my rule is that i wouldn't place a ribbon anywhere where I wouldn't put my own ear. that 'sound' is easily achieved using dynamics too, if you experiment for long enough and have lots of pre's/eq's to shape it.

we hired a pair of glen's reslo ribbons a week or so ago. he can re-ribbon his own mics, so may not care so much if you bust it up.

Cheers

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Postby jkhuri44 » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:56 pm

thanks for that chris1 and chris 2 :)

i've never used a ribbon before, so wanted to avoid any embarassing, or costly screw ups..hehe...if there were any to be made.
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Postby mfdu » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:23 am

i love my ribbons, but i sure as hell wouldn't put them anywhere i could feel air movement.

i love my dynamics, and i'd shove them anywhere they'd fit.

ribbons and dynamics sure don't sound similar, but there are area's of comparison. eg. the subtle "compression" characteristic of a ribbon mic, compared with the dullness imparted by a heavy dynamic capsule (B-52, anyone?)

actually, yeah. i've used a b52 on female ROCK vocals with plenty of high eq (but no mic technique other than an inclination to fellate) - sounded great. i'll try it on a guitar cab some time.

mic-fellatio. could that be the term for a singer who swallows the mic?

but to get back on track.

i'd never ever ever risk phantom power around my mics.
in fact, i don't use phantom on the console, because the old TAC is global.
i only use outboard pre's when using mics that require phantom.

but then, i'd only use phantom powered mics every fourth or fifth session . . . i generally stick to ribbons and dynamics.

chris
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Postby JulienG » Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:55 pm

mfdu wrote:i love my ribbons, but i sure as hell wouldn't put them anywhere i could feel air movement.


So no vocals without a pop shield, no drums, no on-axis brass. That *is* rather limiting, even if I can totally understand it.
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