For innerclocksystems

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For innerclocksystems

Postby rachelp » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:01 am

Hi,
I think the guy from innerclocksystems lurks on here, so I was hoping he would answer a few questions about his new gadget.

Anyway, I am quite interested in it as it is supposed to allow perfect sync or at least configurable sync options for MIDI
and DIN sync units to/from a DAW or audio workstation.

What I want to know is how this will integrate with a setup that has lots of combined MIDI and CV/sync interfaces?

I am on a Mac and use 3 Emagic AMT interfaces, with Logic as the sync master. Then I distribute all my MIDI
to different ports, with one device on each. So I have a proper low latency (theoretically) setup MIDI wise.

Then I also use CV/MIDI interfaces and so on, so that is how I run my analogue gear. I have only used DIN
sync minimally from my Frostwave interface and it seems to work OK.

So I guess my question is - if my workstation connects all this MIDI stuff via a USB cable and a chain of AMT's, how
can the sync shifter controller do this for my whole setup? How does this integrate into a setup like this, where I use lots
of MIDI clocks and clicks to drive things (I like to setup sequences and arps individually on each instrument, then sync them all together - it's crazy but it's my thing),
or are my expectations too high and the gadget is to specifically just sync a couple of bits like a 303 to an MPC to a DAW?

I hope this is not a boring post - I am interested in this gadget, but innerclock's website is one of the worst teasers ever....


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Re: For innerclocksystems

Postby Futureman » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:13 am

rachelp wrote:(I like to setup sequences and arps individually on each instrument, then sync them all together - it's crazy but it's my thing
rachel


I can't speak for innerclock, but...

If you, like me, run your setup in a modular way, ie.. lots of clocked sequencers, all running independently etc, then at the worst case, you need a active midi splitter or a midi patchbay to split the clock signal coming from your PC (Or innerclock in your potential case) to the rest of your sequencers.

If you are using your computer to sequence stuff, then I think you might be in the Sh#@ter.. (But it sounds like you only use your 'puter for sync


Regards

Mike
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Postby Thirteen » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:36 am

I am counting the days until I get a Sync-Shift MkII, now that I have a CSQ-600 I really want to sync it to Nuendo and slip the two sequencers around. No excuse not to buy one now... I am so tired of slipping tracks in a computer to try and get everything in the pocket, I would much rather use an MPC and have the ability to slide the 2 sequencers against each other in real time and listen for the sweet spot instead of taking guesses with numbers in a DAW.
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Postby innerclock » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:43 pm

Hi Rachel, hmmm - I assume you are asking about the Mark II Sync-Shift (the new Sync-Lock is still under wraps at this stage) - am I right? OK - well the Mark II can be used in lots of ways depending on the application of course. With all your AMTs looking after Midi distribution and Sync output you have to look at what needs shifting - the Mark II is a dedicated device that allows real-time offset/shift of one single clock or Din-Sync stream only. You can take the shifted output and run it to a splitter so you get multiple shifted sync outputs but the offset will be the same to all slave devices. Making a multi-channel/discreet version would mean software selection of active controls and probably a screen/menu to do it justice. The $$$ would have been high for a small number of users. As it turns out - many people needing multiple sync offset for lots of external devices end up purchasing a Mark II for each device they want control over because every device is different and you get some crazy syncopation options as well. Syncing lots of things together properly is not crazy at all - I've dedicated my life to it - I guess that's how Innerclock Systems came about in the first place. My whole rig these days is driven from a single DAW SMPTE track driving a master tempo generator which then runs Midi Clock/Din and Voltage Clocks at multiple and simultaneous ratios via voltage delays and Sync-Shifts to keep the whole show locked properly. You're not crazy at all! I'm interested in the Multiple AMT/USB system your using. Are you getting reliable/tight clock and Midi Note stability? In my Mac days the only system that came half close to tight timing was expensive multiple Megawolf Romulus 4 PCI cards running out to 8 individual Serial to Midi convertors. When Logic and Steinberg starting using special code to buffer Midi Events inside their own interfaces to make up for poor driver/serial USB data limitations and the unavoidable law of physics that says 16 ports of serial data into 1 cable just doesn't go real well - thats when my love affair with computers started to fade - I went Atari for a while then did what I should have done 12 years ago and bought an MPC-3000. The computer now just does what it always did well - record audio. No Midi. Well - not yet anyway - my new Sync-Lock may change that for the better - still tweeking the final design - not far off tho..... Thanks for the interest. Best -David
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Postby innerclock » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:56 am

Hi Rachel, on closer reading your initial post - I see you were wanting more info on my new Sync-Lock device rather than the Sync-Shift - am I correct? Sorry for the Mark II rant! The new box is still a beta/prototype at this stage and a few months away from final release so I'm keeping specifics close to home for a little bit longer. What I can say is that it is stand alone in terms of not processing any form of Midi Clock from DAW/existing Midi Interfaces - it will work separately to your AMT units. Nobody doubts the advantages of using computers for music production anymore of course but their ability to tempo sync to the outside/real world with any precision is always a compromise even with the best external interfaces and tricky code in the host application. One of the fundamental reasons many musicians and producers choose to work 'inside the box' rather than sync things externally is down to the fact that truly tight serial external data flow from any computer is almost always impossible to achieve. The Sync-Lock will provide sample accurate, ultra-stable, quantize grid locked Midi Clock and Din-Sync from any DAW - PC or Mac. Sorry if this is still a little cryptic - more info as I get closer to a final design and spec. Best as always - David
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Postby rachelp » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:36 am

Thanks for the reply. I was actually thinking of the Sync Lock, yes! I guess I would have to work out a way to hook up anything I am clocking to go via the sync lock
and everything else via the AMT's. I use Logic on the Mac and it is Ok, but really it lacks
something which I know is just sloppy MIDI timing. I have the 3 AMT/Unitors chained together and one device per MIDI port, with lots of filters in place to keep
MIDI traffic down. But my workflow involves lots of MIDI clock stuff, so I need a way to have one solid clock source driving everything, computer and all. But Logic doesn't like
being a slave and then I still have to send all those clocks around everywhere..... it's confusing making a choice about what I need. I do not do much DIN sync, but I could as I
have a 606 and 202 to drive together however I want. I use a Frostwave Quad MIDI to CV to sync things a bit too, such as the Step sequencer and the SH-101 and so on,
but really, it is all based around MIDI and Logic. I still do not understand why computers can't handle clock sync decently and have algorithms programmed to handle
it or even throw it off to a dedicated hardware clock. The atari was really good at it, but modern computers just don't do that realtime stuff very well.


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Postby rachelp » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:44 pm

Sorry to reply to my own post (again) but this is all starting to be quite interesting, as I have put a deposit down
on a Genoqs Octopus, which I think is going to end up being MIDI master, so the computer is going
to just become a glorified audio recorder. So I think the Sync Lock may be even more useful
in this context. I decided to get the Octopus instead of a new Mac. I guess the bottom line
is one will be with me for the rest of my life and the other a boat anchor in about 5 years.....

So I am now even more curious about how I am going to sync all my goodies together!


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Postby beatmad » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:30 am

rachelp wrote:Sorry to reply to my own post (again) but this is all starting to be quite interesting, as I have put a deposit down
on a Genoqs Octopus, which I think is going to end up being MIDI master, so the computer is going
to just become a glorified audio recorder. So I think the Sync Lock may be even more useful
in this context. I decided to get the Octopus instead of a new Mac. I guess the bottom line
is one will be with me for the rest of my life and the other a boat anchor in about 5 years.....

So I am now even more curious about how I am going to sync all my goodies together!


rachel


I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of the sync-lock. If you have a tight hardware sequencer or 2 or 10...,if my interpretation is correct, my computer will finally provide bullet proof midi clock or din sync direct to my sequencer of choice. Thus when the audio is recorded not only will it be as tight as my MC4B or MPC3000 it will also be locked to the DAW sequencer/audio recorder grid allowing for easier editing. At the moment I'm using FSK, which I believe has been used since the late 60's or early 70's to sync to tape machines. After stuffing around with other sync options I still find this to be the most reliable method for preserving the groove and holding everything together during successive passes. In my experience it's better than SMPTE/MTC or MIDI clock from the DAW but unfortunately doesn't lock to the DAW grid as the FSK is not generated from the audio program. If someone created a plugin that does FSK that would be great. I believe there was one for Windows 95 but I wasn't doing electronica then so have never been able to locate the program.
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