oriental keyboards?

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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby Text_Edifice » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:46 am

major caveat (and slow uptake as I'm not a Cubase user) it appears that most of the bundled vsti's won't support microtuning (the feature isn't implemented) - Halion One apparently being the exception in Cubase 4

http://www.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic. ... ce543c9f2b

Also - have you tried the logical editor / input controller thingy

http://www.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=67339

(see post from vic_france about halfway down)

This is how I'd think about doing it in Logic - create an input filter that remaps or adds a set amount of pitch bend to certain notes to achieve an altered scale.

Easiest option in the long run might still be to grab a hardware synth that will allow for alternate tuning via sysex...
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby Text_Edifice » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:49 am

Ok - last thought - sampler instruments in general should be easier to build alternate scales for as they typically allow for individual tuning of notes / samples by cents.

As a cludge, they could also be loaded with samples of the sounds you want manually retuned using your pitch-shift / time stretch algorithm of choice (analogous to building a sample drum-kit / percussion bank).
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:51 am

^ yes that option would be good and very easy, however unfortunately i want to be doing this with electronic sounds :-( especially native instruments Massive, which is not talking to the native cubase 6 micro tuner.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:52 am

it is a good idea tho, and piss easy to implement, so if i ever need to do it for non layered sample instruments, definately will remember that one...
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby mylesgm » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:44 pm

depending on your approach you could implement this in a program like MAX/msp but I think you'd have to create the entire composition in max and then stream the multichannel audio out of max into cubase for mixing. I think this would actually be quite difficult though maybe there's an easier option I'm not thinking of and you could ask on the max forum. Once you get your head around max though there is very little that can't be achieved as it is an open ended architecture.

In logic the tuning is handled both natively (or globally) or, if the vsti has its own internal pitch controls, individually. This is easily implemented and all of Logics instruments and all of the VSTis I have used with Logic responded well with it. Will only allow the octave to be divided by 12 though and so none of the scales that divide the octave into smaller divisions will work.

Another piece of software worth exploring is AudioMulch and though I haven't used it for microtonal compositions I'd be surprised if Ross Bencina (the creator) hadn't included that aspect and if he hadn't would probably consider implementing it if you requested. Its also a killer piece of software locally made here in melbourne so worth checking out regardless.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:48 pm

for starters, i'd ideally like a slider approach, which has a graphic of all 12 notes in an octave, (all octave linled) with the ability to detune each note in cents (maybe maximum 50-60 cents)....this is all i need for arabic detunings, if i were doing indian stuff, i'd detune each midi note seperately across the keyboard.

pretty much, what i want is a working version of the cubase microtuner, and from the sound of things, the logic micro tuner....

i just dont know what it is about the cubase midiplugin which native instruments does not register.

i'll have a look at audio mulch for sure, i've used it in the past .
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby mylesgm » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:51 pm

jkhuri44 wrote:it is a good idea tho, and piss easy to implement, so if i ever need to do it for non layered sample instruments, definately will remember that one...


I think this would be easy to implement with layered sample sounds (at least I think so using kontakt) because you can select all the layers associated with one key and alter them as a group. Have a look at the gamelan patch if you have kontakt as I think this shows the implementation but I'm sure other samplers would have a similar approach. As to the synth sounds I guess it would depend on the synth. If you already explored absynth, alchemy (from camel audio) also allows individual tuning and is an incredibly detailed and extensive synth. I teach it at NMIT and have barely scratched the surface but you can do granular, sample, graphic, FM, and all of the usual suspects of synthesis but massively controllable and customisable. If I was creating synthesis based music thats what I would be using and its cross platform.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby mylesgm » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:53 pm

you may be able to create that tner/detuner in max so that the midi goes out of cubase into a max patch then back out of max (detuned) and into cubase vsti. I would ask about that over at the max forum.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:58 pm

hey myles, yeah i'm already doing microtuning in absynth, however, the sound of that synth isnt always what im after. i really want to be able to use Massive...and also have a solution that works with any synth, not just the native cubase synths (which currently do read the onboard microtuner..however buggy it may be).

thanks heaps for your help guys, will need to join the max forum, and also get stuck into some tutorials.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:04 pm

ps. yes. alchemy came up when i was doing my microtuning homework, i'll check it out for sure man.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby Kurt » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:52 pm

I'm not at home to check but I believe there is a midi tuning plugin included with Sonar. I'll look into it sometime over the weekend and let you know.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:17 pm

if i can get it in cubase, that would be sick...probably wont be able to, because steinburger are dicks.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby Text_Edifice » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:44 pm

mylesgm wrote:you may be able to create that tner/detuner in max so that the midi goes out of cubase into a max patch then back out of max (detuned) and into cubase vsti. I would ask about that over at the max forum.


That's what I was thinking - and I think what the patch I linked to might do.

Re Logic – what I was thinking, though haven't implemented, was using a transform object (in the environment) between the midi input and the AU, rather than the global tuning setting. The advantage being that you could have scales that extend over more than 12 keys. Not 100% sure this would work - but reasonably confident – and, as Cubase appears to have a similar transform function, if it did a similar approach might work with Cubase.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:09 pm

will have to try....and see....*scratches chin and sobs a little.
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby jkhuri44 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:23 pm

balls, all the links to both cubase transformer/max msp patches are dead...

will have to email the original authors and see if i can get anywhere...

i've raised the issue with turramurra music where i bought this stuff, see if they can help as well....thanks guys for all your help!
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Re: oriental keyboards?

Postby jkhuri44 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:10 pm

after a weekend of F@#$ing around...finally getting somewhere...

seems the go is to completely forget the cubase internal midi microtuner...or any midi plugin offering microtuning...

unfortunately for now, i wont be able to use microtuning with NI massive...but...

i can use it with Reaktor...(waiting for someone to direct me to a pre-written module which uses a slider system to detune each note)...

NI Absynth 5 has its own microtuning facility, which seems buggy in 64 bit at the moment but i should be able to work out...

NI FM8 has its own microtuner and works wonderful!

and i also found this to create .tun files for Kontakt, and most other programs:

http://www.h-pi.com/CSEsoftware.html

the introductory version is free, which is all i need...anyone else which finds scala a little daunting might get some use out of this one!
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