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oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:03 pm
by jkhuri44
Gday all,

i know this is a white boy forum :P whatever i mean by that, you can decide!!!

however, i've been looking at ethnic keyboards for some time with the intention of purchasing one....

seen the big players like Korg with their PA500/800 boards, rolands...

and also brands like Ketron, Genysys, GEM, etc (ethnic brands)

not sure if you guys have any experience with these?

my first instinct is to say that i will be better off using my already existing 24bit sample libraries, with a Microtonal MIDI VST...(which im reading about and havent quite found THE ONE!)

If anyone can share some experience or knowledge in this area, would be great!!

Cheers :)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:14 pm
by rachelp
My DX7-II has a cartridge for Arabic tuning with it. I used to experiment with microtones and unusual scales.
My favourite was one octave tuned across all 61 keys, in microtones so (I think) it was 4 keys to the semitone.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:33 pm
by Chinagraf
Somtink lark dis for yua softsynt?

velly plicey

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:11 pm
by jkhuri44
geez, nearly 200 $ for a program that merely shifts midi notes a few cents...

thanks for the link andy, will have a read :)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:14 pm
by jkhuri44
hold on, im trying to work out what it is....

im on PC , and this is hinting at mac only and being hardware, which makes sense that its 165 $

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:33 pm
by Chinagraf
I had another look at it today, and it's software, Mac only. I thought you were on Prostools? Oh well, the site sure is confusing. All that talk about ovens and frosting and baking. This is the midset of those who work in microtonal tunings...the uber nerds of the scale set. No offense to anyone, I mean that in a positive way.
Are you after a general set of tunings to randomly play with and be inspired, or a specific tuning like for some Gamelan Trance heavy house?
I recently mixed some Punjab and Bhangra stuff that was recorded in India, and I believe the dude used a Motif for the keys, but he setup the tunings himself. I kept wanting to retune things..

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:44 pm
by jkhuri44
hey andy

yeah, ive actually been using Scala for years, for the "nerd" crap u talk about, like Partch tunings and what not...

but my initial question was mainly for writing arabic/indian stuff.

i dont really wanna create my own systems, rather use existing ones.

I like the idea of the GEM/Korg solutions as they have the 12 button microtone buttons which easily allow u to configure basic arabic and indian tunings.

using things in Absynth like the scale creators, and NI's Scripts in Kontakt pissed me off quicker than i could say Allah...

so the short answer is....after general sets of tuning, the most important for me is the 24 not equal tempered arabic scale...or whatever its called...the one with 24 steps..hehe...

and the sub question to that is im trying to work out the best way to get that going, with a specific keyboard, or ITB using my 24 bit samplers like the East West ethnic stuff. etc.

existing ethnic keyboard solutions look kinda cheesy to me, especially the arrangers with built in speakers....if anyone thinks otherwise, lemme know :)

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:11 am
by Chinagraf
BUMP - Jamil, in your search did you come across any tuning tables or softsynths that can do 'just intonation'?
Or does anybody else know of any?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:17 pm
by jkhuri44
hey andy,

have u heard of Scala?

Scala does JUST intonation...however, which synth will you be using??

u'd have to check if Scala supports it. Scala is also free, and used alot by experimental producers. Its been around for a while.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:21 pm
by jkhuri44
unfortunately, i havent really found a library of exclusively arabic scales...its kinda pissing me off..

my best bet would be to buy an oriental keyboard with built in 24 quarter tone scale set, and just use a website i've found to do the drops or raises myself.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:38 pm
by Chinagraf
Hey Jamil, I haven't heard of Scala so thanks for the tip. I have no particular synth in mind, just wanted to mess around with writing some pieces in just intonation. Now I'm off to pull the frets out of my guitars...

PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:50 pm
by jkhuri44
Sorry andy, follow the links to download Scala here.

Also, NI Absynth provides Just intonation presets for all 12 Keys.

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:19 pm
by jkhuri44
right...long dead topic...

i have recently been able to get Cubase 5's micro tuner to work with a small handful of VSTs...

oddly enough, it works with Monologue (native Cubase Synth), HalionOne (native) and Phosycon (acid 303 synth i have)...everything else, it doesnt like...

not even all the cubase native plugins work with wierd, anyone know what else is compatible with the cubase microtuner...not much help on the topic online...

I HOPE all new Native Instruments stuff works...i am yet to install my NI stuff on this fresh format.

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:22 pm
by mylesgm
I hate logic but it does have the ability to alter the midi scale natively so that all synths use an altered pitch set. As far as I can work out though it still only does 12 semitones per octave but each semitone can be detuned as much as you like. I have used scala with my students so that they pick any of the scales with 12 divisions to the octave and then compose with any of the synths to create a polyphonic score. Check the prefs section of logic.

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:32 am
by Hud
I heard a Ketron at a Lebanese wedding a couple weeks back. Friggin awesome, do they usually just have one main sound?

I learned many things at that wedding, such as 'to make your drum sounds really carry onto the dance floor, pick up a drum and actually play it on the dance floor' :-bd

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:53 am
by jkhuri44
ketron are top of the range, but all those oriental workstations are pretty expensive...and still 16 bit...which in their case sounds good..however, u know...being 21st century and all, would prefer 24.

As for sound sets, they usually have "songs" which are chords, percussion, time sig info, and such....usually accompanied by cheesy bass guitar, western drums, etc.

the leads are a variety, from violins, mizmars, arabic strings, flutes, synth leads, etc...

i guess any GM sound on the keyboard + special oriental sounds is what's available.

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:13 am
by jkhuri44
ok, i feel like a friggin idiot parrot opening up this thread every few months...
but this issue is giving me the shits....

ive just built a new PC, with Windows 7 64 bit....installed cubase 6 - with the 6.04 upgrade, which i am less than pleased about...

i've tried their microtuning plug in again, and once again it STILL does not talk to Native Instruments sounds...this is amazingly frustrating.

Absynth has its own tuning tables, which is a blessing, but that synth cant be used for everything....

now, i've been dabbling with Reaktor now for the first time in years, something has happened in my brain where it's all working for me now...and im loving it....

is anyone famiiiar with macros/modules which can be patched into the midi sections of any synths whhere one can modify scales in cents?? im sure it exists in reaktor.??

PS (i've seen your LMSO link chinagraf, but i just dont want to spend $200 on a solution like this, which i know is god damn simple to implement, but is needlessly complicated)

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:22 pm
by The Tasmanian
Keep trying Jamil - you will get there mate!

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:21 pm
by Text_Edifice
These guys use alternate tuned keyboards, maybe ask them what they're using / how they're doing it.

I'm sure you've exhausted this possibility already but the MIDI standard does allow for alternate tunings (not always employed by synth manufacturers though).

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:50 pm
by jkhuri44
mr edifice,
do you know if its possible to omplement this midi tuning in cubase, in order to talk to native instruments plugins??

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:54 pm
by Text_Edifice
I'm not a Cubase user I'm sorry Jamil.

Suggest there's a pretty good possibility if you're working with synthesis rather than sampling plugs.

Also, I remember seeing a list of hardware modules that had implemented that part of the MIDI protocol but can't remember where. Might be worth a quick google?

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:05 pm
by Text_Edifice
You've seen the tobybear midibag thing that gets bandied around too haven't you ... s-on-a-daw

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:10 pm
by jkhuri44
ahh good shit...thanks man!!! will try these babies tonight (crosses fingers)

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:26 am
by jkhuri44
hmm, no dice, will have to install cubase 32 on 62 atm...
these midibag plugins in general look awesome!!! the frequency dependant midi gate firing thing is awesome!

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:31 am
by Text_Edifice
Bugger – all of tobybears plugs and tools are pretty cool / unusual.

I hate to suggest it but what about MAX/MSP?

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:09 am
by jkhuri44
i have no idea how to use mac, have downloaded demo, and its just sitting on my pc....gathering meta-dust...i will solve this pickle tho, its been the bain of my production life for...ever.

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:15 am
by The Tasmanian
At least with Max - you can do/build anything you want - why wait forever for someone else to build what you want?
Surely it would also be extremely simple build to make a bit of software that did what you are asking? - ask Myles here - he's the Max guru!

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:18 am
by jkhuri44
the problem i have is there are several plugins than tune scales, but not all, if any actually talk to the VSTs i want to use, so it's very frustrating, its either that or, im retarded, probably the later.

cubase 6 stock midi microtuner is F@#$ing useless, i want to stab steinberg with an icepick....

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:32 am
by Text_Edifice
Slow day and this problem has me interested – precompiled max patch:

Also I found some guys using NN-XT sampler in Reason to achieve Arabic / other scales.

Re: oriental keyboards?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:38 am
by jkhuri44
winner...once again thanks man...will be trying both this, and also the midibag plugin again in cubase 32.