Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

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Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby jakek » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:53 pm

gotta start somewhere....

i've been procrastinating too long.. being lazy... working a desk full time (not the good kind) and now I'm 31 i wanna do what i can.... willing to see what happens, committed to giving this my complete 110%

Drums are a pretty daunting task...

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i've got some gear and some technical stuff down but need the skills!

Which will only come from experience and talking to people who know more then me, so i thought i'd share with you all and especially with other beginners the process of how I'm going about learning and building up my abilities to record better and also then mix better (and hope the more experienced will lend a guiding hand and for other people starting out to discuss etc), because i will do this, we can do this! people shit all over your dreams, the old hands can be harsh, reality shits all over your bank account but for me this isn't a choice really :)

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So last night i spent some time micing the kit a TAMA Superstar, i put a 57 on the snare, a D112 on the kik, 2x EV PL35 on the rack toms a 421 on the floor tom and have 2 x audit adx51 as OH and another audix an i5 on hats. the kit is a 10” 12” 14” 22” and some sort of old metal 14x5.5 tama snare, cymbals are 13” pst 502 hats, 18” paiste alpha crash and a 22” sabian apx ride.

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Not any of these are top notch but… gotta start some where! just start doing stuff, trying things is the best advice i never took … till now.

i tried a few takes… played with minor placement and experimented with the snare.

Listen here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-2j2DcqZ5uSelF4MllweTZpMEE/view?usp=sharing

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then today i tried to tune the drums and moved the OH and snare mic around.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-2j2DcqZ5uScm9KOGxFODNBWG8/view?usp=sharing

I should mention at this stage i only have 8 inputs which means i cant put any more mics on the kit i.e. snare, kick, room….

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signal path is a digidesign pre into a lucid 88192 to a lynx pcie card (card bought here at turtle cheers!) ) in a OWC thunderbolt enclosure.

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Let me know what you think, all advice, criticism, complaints will be heard no ego will get offended.

To all others starting this adventurous journey, give it a go! and share what you’re up to cause i have noticed that in this industry it is very secretive and judgemental some of the time and we need confidence to get better and also advice.

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Cheers all!

Regards
Jake Kennedy

p.s.
Sorry about the aspect ratio of the photos!!!
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby Zarven Kara » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:40 pm

change the floor :)
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby Kurt » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:17 pm

Maybe, but in the spirit of sharing, why?

Zarven Kara wrote:change the floor :)
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby Zarven Kara » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:42 am

There are always exceptions but generally speaking for most applications recording in a "live" environment is going to be necessary for achieving a good result. This means either hardwood or concrete floors with throw rugs to control the ambience. Try recording a cello or acoustic guitar with a hard floor and the compare it to carpet you will see. Even play an acoustic instrument in a room with carpet and its horrible. The exception being if you are producing a dance track and need a dead pan drum sound to process the begeebes out of it then carpet in a small room might be beneficial but start with getting the drums tuned nice and the room right first then move on to the rest....
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby jakek » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:46 am

Underneath is concrete....
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby Zarven Kara » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:16 pm

Pull up the carpet, grind the concrete and polyurethane it. Buy a few rugs.... how big is the room?
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby jakek » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:25 pm

A little over 5m X 5m, converted double garage.

It's polished concrete, polyurethane eh....?
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby Paul Maybury » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:30 pm

Hi, my advice would be to start with less mics. Maybe just one. Get the drums tuned how you want and get that one mic sounding great. Add another mic if there's something missing. Check phase. Learn the room. Move the drums around in the room. Get the balance right acoustically between the various elements of the kit.
Add more mics of you "need" them. Check phase. Keep checking phase. For about twenty years.
Done.
Cheers, Paul
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby Chris H » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:43 pm

+1 on what Paul suggested. When I started out i could only afford an 8 track and as I heard in the 70's they used 3 mics on the kit, I gave it a go and it sounded fine. I had never heard of Glyn Jones (if u haven't google him). I ended up recording most of the projects using only 8 tracks and a few with the tape machine sync'd to hard disk but still used only 3 mics on the kit. Often the forced limitations are an advantage.
So if u want to close mic as that is a legit way to pull a sound as well, with a limit of 8 tracks, go for one OH and your close mics. Looking at your pic of the mics on your kit my intuition is they are pointing in the wrong spot of the drum head. The way you have it is more suited for a "processed" sound where the drum head is almost a trigger. I prefer to have the head of the mic no further in than the rim and a few inches above pointing accros towards the center of the head. That will get more of the drum resonance as a whole. For this to work best you also need to consider how the spill sounds because you are going to use it to advantage ie no gates. Solo the mic but play the kit except for the drum that mic is on so u can check how the spill sounds. Some mics sound much better than others in this regard. While I love the 421 as a tom mic, it's not the best regarding spill.
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby Chris H » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:07 pm

...........another thing, looking at your "mix" room I am wondering if your monitoring will be accurate enough. eg, speakers in the corners will exaggerate the bass response. Maybe you know all this maybe you don't??... but do some research, basic and set your room up as best you can on a budget, u can do it cheap once u KNOW what u need and what basicly needs to be done to how u set up your listening environment.


I am going to go out on a limb here and hope you take my comments in a positive light.
Your comments like " some in this industry are very secretive and judgemental some of the time etc ect after asking us all to respond, by sharing our hard earned knowledge? I was initially put off by these aspects of your post. Sure some are, but most Ive met are very generous. After a few years of picking up what I could after learning the basics of signal flow and gain setting etc, I was mentored by a great engineer, but i know he didnt do this at our first meeting, it took a few years of him getting to know me. Before the internet I remember ringing Rick about advise on gear to start out on and he was happy to give advise with the warning" as long as i don't do anything stupid like try to poach clients.
It's worth saying that hard earned knowledge isn't always readily shared as some times those with it want some measure of the likely recipient of their knowledge earning the right to it. You have only made 10 posts and as a community we don't know you at all. :ar!
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby jakek » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:37 pm

Hi, Thanks for taking the time to reply, i hear what your saying and will try what you say and i get your point of view. I make no secret i am \very much a beginner trying to do my best and learn, yes i am new and you have no reason to share if you don’t want to, but i very much hope you will take on board just how much i want to do this. Chris i understand i put you off but you agree with what i say and then tell me of your experiences not mine (no offence intended at all), so i guess i just need to get out there more and interact with more people and hope that i can do well enough that people share, i know i most certainly do when asked earnestly, and i wouldn’t do anything as stupid as mess with someone else clients let alone be the sort of person who thinks of it…. Sorry if this post itself was stupid but I’m too keen sometimes to share and we all have different personalities, backgrounds and experiences and understanding someone else is sometime an issue for the best of us.

Kind regards
Jake Kennedy
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby jakek » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:39 pm

hope the last part isnt taken the wrong way just a global observation.... not sure if relevent now ;(
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby jakek » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:41 pm

thanks for the advice on the room Chris, i will continue my research as best i can
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby jakek » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:45 pm

and for all the other great advice!!!! I hope you wont mind if i continue to post...?
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby jakek » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:52 pm

Sorry to harp on but im trying to think from professionals point of view that you have your current livelihood to lose and i can only gain.. sorry if i forgot this
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby Chris H » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:13 pm

You have as much right to post as I do and you are welcome here..... who am i to say anything else? Go for it 100 percent and nothing will stop you especially some grumpy old internet bastard. View it as my way of doing you a favor. With something like audio engineering, the main ingredient to learning is you .......there is a ton of info out there on the net, a lot is good and a lot sets you in the wrong direction. Nothing beats working alongside someone who really knows the job. The first person i worked for was a great professional in live mixing and i learnt a lot that was later essential knowledge for the studio environment. I next worked for a studio professional who in a quiet way mentored, at first without me even realizing.
Most good mentors won't just hand it all to you, they will make you work so you value the knowledge they give. I know that's a bit of an old fashioned spin, I suppose it is the apprenticeship model, but i just thought i would throw it in your direction.
I hope you get a lot out of being on the forum.
PS: it's not that I'm worried about losing work, ......if i'm not good enough to get and keep clients, thats my problem..... however there is a lot of shit going down in the industry but that's another story. It takes a very clever, adaptable and dedicated person to stay in the game and earn a real income over an extended period of time these days.
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Re: Gotta Start Somewhere... so drums...?

Postby Wiz » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:15 am

I haven't read all the replies, so apologies if someone already mentioned this..

you could do worse than getting someone around,and paying them to set up and get the best out of what you have.. in terms of tuning, drum placement within the room, mic placement gain staging etc.....

A good set of experienced ears for a couple of hours might not cost too much and the gains you get would be exponential I reckon..

food for thought..

cheers

Wiz
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