How to get the guitar to "speak"

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How to get the guitar to "speak"

Postby jithknot » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:48 am

Hey there, im jithin, in really new to this forum, and i'd like to ask about eq'ing distorted guitars.most of the time i have trouble trying to get the guitar to "speak" i.e, make all the notes of, lets say, a chord, to ring out clearly without it sounding really muddy and what not.
any suggestions??
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Postby heathen » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:12 am

Hi Jithin, welcome to TurtleRock, I find the biggest mistake a lot of people make eq electric guits is that they scoop the midrange with a smiley face eq setting, I find to give guits more detail you want to either leave the mids alone or give a slight boost to give more definition and a little edge.

A low shelf eq dropped a few db can help get rid of a little mud also. Or if really needed a hpf could be used.

There are a lot of other good techniques people will add I'm sure.
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Postby 13thbeach » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:42 am

I think also before eq, take the time to position the mic / mics. If its too muddy, it could be because the mic is not in a great spot. Get the positioning right, then resort to eq if needed.
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Postby 13thbeach » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:44 am

I think also before eq, take the time to position the mic / mics. If its too muddy, it could be because the mic is not in a great spot. Get the positioning right, then resort to eq if needed.
Oh! and before all that......Have a play with the amp, it all starts at the source right.
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Postby TimS » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:39 am

Use less distortion/overdrive if you want things to ring out better.
Particularly if you are multitrackingdoubling/layering guitar parts.
Alot of players think that alot of gain is good - some is, but too much makes it muddy and lack definition.
Having a great amp will make a big difference too.
Start with the source first.. :-)
Happy recording.
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Postby TimS » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:39 am

TimS wrote:Use less distortion/overdrive if you want things to ring out better.
Particularly if you are multitracking/doubling/layering guitar parts.
Alot of players think that alot of gain is good - some is, but too much makes it muddy and lack definition.
Having a great amp will make a big difference too.
Start with the source first.. :-)
Happy recording.
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Postby walding » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:55 am

TimS wrote:Use less distortion/overdrive if you want things to ring out better.
Particularly if you are multitrackingdoubling/layering guitar parts.
Alot of players think that alot of gain is good - some is, but too much makes it muddy and lack definition.
Having a great amp will make a big difference too.
Start with the source first.. :-)
Happy recording.


Oh boy AINT that the truth.

Sits better in the mix as well and will be more punchy.
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Postby Chris H » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:48 am

Hi jithin, can you give us an idea of the guitar/amp setup you are having trouble with. The question i have firstly is what are you using to achieve the distortion? Pods and other amp emulations as a rule dont layer up well on a recording especially with chords and if the foot pedal used to get distortion or overdrive is digital i find they lack presence in a mix, and live as well.
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Postby jithknot » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:09 pm

well right now im using my boss GT8 gtr fx processor. and also playing around with amplitube. im kinda impressed by what i get outta amplitube though. the gt8 just drives me plain crazy.
which also brings me to another question, should i use a D.I if im connecting my guitar directly to the input, i.e when im using amplitube. but then again im using a 002. and another thing is like whether i should use D.I before the GT8 or after GT8.
im fairly new to the audio world, so please forgive me if any of my questions seem dum. :)
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Postby Chris H » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:21 pm

No worries, the questions are good ones and you are on the same search for what sounds good that every one on this forum is on. I have always learnt most in the company of other players but as always each to their own. When you hear things you dont like in your sound, then the search is really on! You will know when you have got what you are looking for.
None of this advice is the only way etc etc but in my opinion, with the gear you are using one of the things you are missing out on is how a speaker and cabinet works when amping an electric guitar. I call it moving air. So with your gear, try the boss through a guitar amp and mic the speaker. Another way around this is to buy a Hughes and Kettner Red Box cabinet simulator.
http://www.guitar.com.au/effects/hughes ... REDBOX.htm
For me though i steer away from guitar effects processors. Here's why i'm prejudiced against them.
In the 80's when they began to gain in usage, it was a consistent fact to my ears that every time i played with my setup or other guitarists played through it there was always more stage presence and tonal 'meat' than every guitarists setup that was through a guitar multy fx processor. My setup was and still is a valve amp; musicman, fender, goldentone. footpedals; pro co rat, mxr distortion and blue box, electro harmonics memory man, custom built attack delay box. Once recorded i will use fx units like the zoom, boss or software plugins, and if i want to play with the effect as inspiration then i will monitor in the controll room when i play.
Nothing has really changed in this regard and I am still of the same opinion in the studio with pods etc that an all analogue path for electric guitar can not be beaten. Of course i regularly record players whose whole sound is built around their experience with the particular fx processor they own so i have to have methods to make it work the way they like it to sound that for me does not compromise the recording.
One of the main issue for many players is never having a term of reference for their sound because they have been playing through an fx processor all their playing life and simply do not know the sound of the alternative i have outlined, until they are confronted with it in real life rather than playing in the bedroom. They play a gig then the next band has someone like Shannon Bourne playing guitar and the guitar sound leaves your sound for dead and you begin to ask the famous Professor's question Why is it So!!!....:)
Ok i'm showing my age....give it all a go and see, or rather hear what i'm trying to say.
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Re: How to get the guitar to "speak"

Postby Chris H » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:28 pm

jithknot wrote:Hey there, im jithin, in really new to this forum, and i'd like to ask about eq'ing distorted guitars.most of the time i have trouble trying to get the guitar to "speak" i.e, make all the notes of, lets say, a chord, to ring out clearly without it sounding really muddy and what not.
any suggestions??


I just re read this and the simple answer is eq won't fix this as it really is best to fix it at the source, ie the guitar, playing style and what i was ranting on about in my first answer the amp/fx setup.
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Postby jkhuri44 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:36 pm

yeah, what chris said...pretty simple really:

-killer guitar (nice pickups too...not just a guitar that u thought was on special and is good for the price, i mean, a reaaaal good guitar)

-killer analog pedals

-awesome amp

-or in the case of metal players, an awesome amp ,with a heavy as shit cab, loaded with beaut speakers.

unfortunately guitar tone is something that means spending a a lot of money, and buying and selling heaps of different chains...unless ur the kind of guitarist that could make a be!@#$%^& guitar into an ashton amp sound like a record :-)
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Postby jithknot » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:37 pm

thanks a lot. i gained quite a lotta info outta this.
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Postby TimS » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:40 pm

+ 1 for what Jamil said.
My guitar preamp is THE most expensive kit I have - cost me $2700 back in 2002 - I had it shipped from Norway.
It was the BEST gear purchase I've made (ever!) and its my signature tones.. and I love it.
Paired with a Boogie 50/50 stereo tube power amp and I'm a pig in shit.
I'm not even playing with rack FX anymore - totally dry and just tone to die for for days.... only a CE-2 (chrous) and a clean boost (Crowther Hotcake)
My speaker cab is awesome too custom designed 1 x 12 (designed by John Suhr of Suhr Guitars)
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Postby Mark Bassett » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:55 pm

Joe Baressi on how he recorded Adam Jones' guitar on Tool's 10'000 days, a great example of clean mixed with distorted tone to yield a guitar sound that cuts, you can hear all the notes, but it's also chunk.

"Adam mainly runs three amps: He has a Marshall that he loves, a Diezel and then he was using a Mesa Boogie at one point. I brought in a Bogner Uberschall head and a Rivera Knucklehead Reverb, and several other things. Then we just experimented with combinations of heads and cabinets until it worked for the song. Most of the 4×12s were Mesa Boogie cabinets, which are superior for their low end, except for the Marshall head, which went through a Marshall cabinet, and the Rivera went through a Rivera cabinet. I usually used stock miking. For me, that's a Shure SM57 and a Sennheiser 421 on every cabinet. The third mic could be anything that I felt the sound needed more of.â€
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Postby tunetown » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:01 pm

It doesn't always have to be expensive. Find out the tone you love. What is the guitar? What is the pickup? Then buy any cheap guitar that plays well and buy the pickup you need. I recon about 98% of an electric guitar sound comes from the pickup. Have someone who knows how install it for ya. Search for any class A valve amp second hand. I've seen old Vardis amps sell for less that $1000. Have it serviced with good NOS valves. Chuck in a couple of new Celestian Greenbacks and boom, classic guitar tone. Add good pedals when you can.

Turn it up loud and wack an SM57 in front. This'll blow any emulation device off the planet.

If you can't do this for less than $2000 your not looking hard enough.

Just my $0.02

Good luck on your journey
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Postby tunetown » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:03 pm

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Postby TimS » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:03 pm

True, it doesnt have to be expensive, but just like most high end gear, the higher the price, the better made and better sounds will come from it.
My preamp IS my sound - so price was not an issue at the time.
However, I get your point Pete..
Its a culmination of many factors that will make a great guitar sound..
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Postby tunetown » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:07 pm

I've heard many great players make a shit rig sound great. I've also heard many shit players make a great rig sound shit.

This is a big question and a few lifetimes of experience may be required to answer it thoroughly.
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Postby Mark Bassett » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:09 pm

Post a link to your mix jithin.
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Postby Brent » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:11 pm

One ingredient that is often overlooked is a tuner, particularly if you are layering.

Boss TU-2's aren't tuners they're mute switches (and poor ones at that). Get a Peterson Strobostomp or one of the other Peterson jobbies. Strobosoft is excellent as well.

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Postby Chris H » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:20 pm

tunetown wrote:It doesn't always have to be expensive. Find out the tone you love. What is the guitar? What is the pickup? Then buy any cheap guitar that plays well and buy the pickup you need. I recon about 98% of an electric guitar sound comes from the pickup. Have someone who knows how install it for ya. Search for any class A valve amp second hand. I've seen old Vardis amps sell for less that $1000. Have it serviced with good NOS valves. Chuck in a couple of new Celestian Greenbacks and boom, classic guitar tone. Add good pedals when you can.

Turn it up loud and wack an SM57 in front. This'll blow any emulation device off the planet.

If you can't do this for less than $2000 your not looking hard enough.

Just my $0.02

Good luck on your journey


I totally agree that it doesn't have to be expensive BUT will have to disagree, and not just for arguments sake, that "98% of an electric guitar sound comes from the pickup". The foundation of any electric guitar worth playing is how it sounds when NOT plugged in. Every player should audition the electric they are thinking of buying un plugged and hear how it sustains and the tone etc. When you get one that sounds clear, well defined and has good sustain,THEN get your best of pickup of your choice. Many electric guitars are acoustically / tonally dead and the pickup will do jack shit in making them sound any better.
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Postby heathen » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:21 pm

I agree with Pete, I've played guitars worth a small fortune that play like dogs, others which were much cheaper that played great.

I don't think you need to spend a fortune either, a bit of research and finding a comfy guitar and amp to suit is the very first step.

I still think the smiley face eq is where most people screw up a guitar sound, 90% of the time if I'm not getting a decent sound it is either the guitarist themselves or some dodgy eq setting in one of thier fx units. Also having fx units arse about, like say having delay going into a distortion box and not realising they are distorting the delay too.

Also I find guitarists to be some of the most difficult muso's to deal with, usually getting upset when you tell (try to help them) them they are doing it all wrong. I've heard $10,000 rigs sound like garbage cause the monkey playing don't practice and does'nt know how to set his gear up.

Anyway yes there is more to recording great guitar than eq alone.

Re-amping is great because you can spend the time trying all the different tricks you need in getting it perfect.
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Postby heathen » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:23 pm

tunetown wrote:I've heard many great players make a shit rig sound great. I've also heard many shit players make a great rig sound shit.

This is a big question and a few lifetimes of experience may be required to answer it thoroughly.


Agreed!!! :)
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Postby heathen » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:29 pm

Also it depends on what type of sound you like. One of my fav distorted guitar sounds is Scott Ian from Anthrax in the album "Stomp 442", others may hate it. It's just so brutal yet very listenable, unlike say Slayer which is also great but not so listenable to me.

Also Iron Maiden Killers is one of my fav too.
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Postby TimS » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:34 pm

Get some old Dann Huff (and newer stuff) into ya for guitar tones - he's a killer player..
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Postby tunetown » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:36 pm

Chris H wrote:
tunetown wrote:It doesn't always have to be expensive. Find out the tone you love. What is the guitar? What is the pickup? Then buy any cheap guitar that plays well and buy the pickup you need. I recon about 98% of an electric guitar sound comes from the pickup. Have someone who knows how install it for ya. Search for any class A valve amp second hand. I've seen old Vardis amps sell for less that $1000. Have it serviced with good NOS valves. Chuck in a couple of new Celestian Greenbacks and boom, classic guitar tone. Add good pedals when you can.

Turn it up loud and wack an SM57 in front. This'll blow any emulation device off the planet.

If you can't do this for less than $2000 your not looking hard enough.

Just my $0.02

Good luck on your journey


I totally agree that it doesn't have to be expensive BUT will have to disagree, and not just for arguments sake, that "98% of an electric guitar sound comes from the pickup". The foundation of any electric guitar worth playing is how it sounds when NOT plugged in. Every player should audition the electric they are thinking of buying un plugged and hear how it sustains and the tone etc. When you get one that sounds clear, well defined and has good sustain,THEN get your best of pickup of your choice. Many electric guitars are acoustically / tonally dead and the pickup will do jack shit in making them sound any better.

Sure, electric guitars with good acoustic woods are great to play acoustically but once the pickup is plugged in any timber resonance is lost. I am good friends with a very good Luthier and we did this experiment. I used to argue the same opinion as you. He put a great pair of Gibson Classic pickups on a piece of shit guitar that had shit timber resonance. Plugged it into a nice class A valve amp and turned it up. I defy anyone to pick the difference between a great Les. He then bolted an old neck onto some chipboard. It still sounded good. I dunno, I just don't think the timber plays that much of a role. Maybe 98% was too much. An acoustic guitar is another story.

Just my .02
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Postby heathen » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:49 pm

TimS wrote:Get some old Dann Huff (and newer stuff) into ya for guitar tones - he's a killer player..


Hmmmmmmm, just checked him, not really my thing.

This will still be modern in 30 years if anyone ever learns how to use a guitar better, still not my fav tone but definitely the best guitarist I've ever seen live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw74sDWPH7U
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Postby tunetown » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:55 pm

heathen wrote:
TimS wrote:Get some old Dann Huff (and newer stuff) into ya for guitar tones - he's a killer player..


Hmmmmmmm, just checked him, not really my thing.

This will still be modern in 30 years if anyone ever learns how to use a guitar better, still not my fav tone but definitely the best guitarist I've ever seen live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw74sDWPH7U

Yeh, he's a freak. I saw him at Coogee Bay and wanted to chop off my fingers after. He makes it effortless. His band was great too.
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Postby Chris H » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:03 pm

tunetown wrote:
Chris H wrote:
tunetown wrote:It doesn't always have to be expensive. Find out the tone you love. What is the guitar? What is the pickup? Then buy any cheap guitar that plays well and buy the pickup you need. I recon about 98% of an electric guitar sound comes from the pickup. Have someone who knows how install it for ya. Search for any class A valve amp second hand. I've seen old Vardis amps sell for less that $1000. Have it serviced with good NOS valves. Chuck in a couple of new Celestian Greenbacks and boom, classic guitar tone. Add good pedals when you can.

Turn it up loud and wack an SM57 in front. This'll blow any emulation device off the planet.

If you can't do this for less than $2000 your not looking hard enough.

Just my $0.02

Good luck on your journey


I totally agree that it doesn't have to be expensive BUT will have to disagree, and not just for arguments sake, that "98% of an electric guitar sound comes from the pickup". The foundation of any electric guitar worth playing is how it sounds when NOT plugged in. Every player should audition the electric they are thinking of buying un plugged and hear how it sustains and the tone etc. When you get one that sounds clear, well defined and has good sustain,THEN get your best of pickup of your choice. Many electric guitars are acoustically / tonally dead and the pickup will do jack shit in making them sound any better.

Sure, electric guitars with good acoustic woods are great to play acoustically but once the pickup is plugged in any timber resonance is lost. I am good friends with a very good Luthier and we did this experiment. I used to argue the same opinion as you. He put a great pair of Gibson Classic pickups on a piece of shit guitar that had shit timber resonance. Plugged it into a nice class A valve amp and turned it up. I defy anyone to pick the difference between a great Les. He then bolted an old neck onto some chipboard. It still sounded good. I dunno, I just don't think the timber plays that much of a role. Maybe 98% was too much. An acoustic guitar is another story.

Just my .02


Ok, in al fairness i have to be open to the possibility of being wrong without being pedantic about percentages but i don't think i am wrong on this one.
If all you needed was a decent neck, a chipboard body and "great fabulous pickups" then there are a lot of very silly guitarists paying way too much money on guitars that do nothing more than satisfy a prejudice that the wood really does matter.
And here is a test to your proposition...:) ..... if i put those Gibson Classic pickups on my strat will it sound like your gibbo and if not....why not...?????
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