Mellowmuse ATA and Plugin Delay Compensation

by **DwaneHollands** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:02 pm

Hi guys,

Working on a mix right now with PT LE 8 and I'm up to around 36 audio tracks. Running quite a few plugins, T-Racks Linear EQ, 670 Comp, Tube Comp, PSP audio stereo, Pod Farm, SansAmp, Maxim, Air Reverbs blah blah blah. + Garritan Personal orchestra (that chews big time)

I'm currently running at 2048 sample size and really at the limit of my Macbook (Unibody 13.3") performance. (I'm still impressed at how many plug-ins I can run on this thing though!)

Running so close to the absolute max of my laptop I would probably be having plugin delay yeah? There's so much in this mix and I'm still a bit of a newb so I'm not sure if I can pick if there's plugin delay by listening to the mix. What would be the symptoms of plugin delay? What should I listen for? Would the compressors be triggering weird or be inconsistent?

Is it highly recommended to get Mellowmuse ATA?

by **Mark Bassett** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:26 pm

To check for plugin latency, Option+Command Click the numbers under the fader that display your fader level. The default is Vol, then Pk (peak) then Dly (total plug-in delay latency introduced in samples).

"The delay indicator reports the total delay due to inserting TDM and/or RTAS plug-ins on the track, plus any delays due to bussing audio to and from any external hardware."

by **DwaneHollands** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:29 pm

ahhhhhh. ok. Fantastic tip! Did not know that!

What is an acceptable amount of delay? 2ms? Or what is unnacceptable or problematic do you think?
(not near my PT rig today)

Thanks for the tip!

by **DwaneHollands** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:31 pm

Oops. Sorry what is the acceptable SAMPLE SIZE or what SAMPLE SIZE of the delay becomes a problem? (not milliseconds like I said it my previous post)

by **Mark Bassett** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:49 pm

It really depends on your processing. A 2ms delay won't exactly throw things out of time, but if you're combining a snare with a latent/delayed version of itself, 2ms will cause comb filtering, starting with a null at 250Hz.

As far as samples go, the higher the sample rate, the shorter the sample period.

So

The sample period at 44.1k = 1/44100 = 0.022ms so 1000 samples delay = approx 22ms delay at 44.1k
The sample period at 48k = 1/48000 = 0.021ms so 1000 samples delay = approx 21ms delay at 48k
The sample period at 88.2k = 1/88200 = 0.011ms so 1000 samples delay = approx 11ms delay at 88.2k
The sample period at 96k = 1/96000 = 0.010ms so 1000 samples delay = approx 10ms delay at 96k

Any delay under 30ms (where a signal is combined with a delayed version of itself) is going to mess with your tone, but on aux buses that have a verb on it for example, having your reverb return late won't cause you major hassles, it will with a parallel compression setup where you're not using time-based processing.

"The delay indicator reports the total delay due to inserting TDM and/or RTAS plug-ins on the track, plus any delays due to bussing audio to and from any external hardware."

by **DwaneHollands** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 am

Mark.

Thanks for that very useful information!

My session is at 44.1khz and I have the Snare AUX and Kick Aux running about 1024 samples, so over 22ms of delay. There are a few others aswell (only had a few minutes to check it last night).

The Kick Aux has "Kick In" and "Kick Out" mics from BFD2 feeding it. There is no kick in OH's or room mic or ambient mics. So that's really all by itself.

The Snare Aux has "Bottom mic", "top 1 mic" and "top 2 mic" from BFD feeding it. As I remember I have an OH with "snare only" feeding it to.

However, I think it makes sense to me that I should be getting Mellowmuse ATA. There's obviously significant delay in a few tracks and getting that perfect will just prevent problems for me when the mix gets complicated.

by **Mark Bassett** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:22 am

There's plenty of ways to get around these issues, but today I'm a busy man...

by **DwaneHollands** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:09 pm

Mark,

No problems! I bought the plugin and used it last night. Tightened everything up. Even the guy I'm recording who isn't very tech, could tell the difference. He mentioned it sounded tighter before I did!

I know it's the lazy man's option, but I kinda need a little quality control at the moment so that I can focus on the bigger stuff in the mix. lol.

Thanks!

by **waitup** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:25 pm

Does the mellowmuse plug work for hardware inserts too?

by **Mark Bassett** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:37 pm

waitup wrote:Does the mellowmuse plug work for hardware inserts too?

No, you need to set the hardware insert delay manually.

by **heathen** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:59 am

DwaneHollands wrote:Mark,

No problems! I bought the plugin and used it last night. Tightened everything up. Even the guy I'm recording who isn't very tech, could tell the difference. He mentioned it sounded tighter before I did!

I know it's the lazy man's option, but I kinda need a little quality control at the moment so that I can focus on the bigger stuff in the mix. lol.

Thanks!

Dwane, it's not cheating at all if it gets it right, it will save you a lot of headaches. This is the only reason I hav'nt bought an LE system. ADC should be standard on any and every DAW.

Some plugins actually report the wrong latency also, not many but a few do, just something to be aware of.

by **DwaneHollands** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:06 pm

http://www.mellowmuse.com/ATA.html

it says it compensates for outboard delay. Perhaps a new feature. Yeah I realize pt le us like the ONLY daw that doesn't automatically compensate. What a pain. If and when I get a new rig I'm so leaning towards logic and apogee. Freeze tracks, bounce in place and no hardware restrictions! No track limits. Etc etc

apogee make a very strong case...

by **duuuhhh** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:53 pm

Well, I've tried that Mellowmuse and I didn't find it that easy to manage. It's kinda confusing sometimes, I usually mix using auxiliaries as buses for drums, guitars, vocals, as well as "sub-buses" for layers of kick and snare. So my first attempt with ATA was simply inserting it on every track and than click the "ping" thing to solve my problems, but it wasn't that simple. Then I tried using their internal auxiliaries as shown on the manual (yeah, by then I had decided to read it) but even so I didn't get how it would work on the way I'm used to mix (it still didn't work after following the how-to on the manual).
I think it's worth a shot though, it's only $50 and it could be a good time saver, as long as you fully understand how to use it (which I'm yet to do) and it would be great if you wanna use UAD or Powercore or any other cards running VST-wrapped plugins.

by **thephil** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:49 am

I just grabbed this ADC plug in for a mix im about to tackle, mainly cause apart from software plugs Im also going to be using a duende and a liquid mix for it....normally I use the cmd+click option and compensate the delay by using pro tools time adjuster plug...but an auto compensator would be sweet...if it works....wish I had the $$$ for HD and could justify upgrading....

by **TimS** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:42 pm

I just bought it the other day and used it on a mix - worked a treat.
Apparently (!) it can be used on hardware inserts also - that's what the literature says anyway!!

Mellowmuse ATA and Plugin Delay Compensation

Mellowmuse ATA and Plugin Delay Compensation

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