Wertheim Piano

[DwaneHollands]

Hi Guys,

I've been offered a Wertheim Piano - pre 1936. I'm still getting information on it - tuning history, pictures etc. They're asking a grand for it.

Anyone have any experience with them. Anything to dodge. Tone any good? Are they problematic and a time waster, or a hidden gem?

Thanks for any info guys!

[jkhuri44]

to be a negative git....

i dont see the point of 1000 dollars on a piano you cant mic in a good acoustic space, assuming you're recording at home...that 1K could be better spent on a flagship piano VST...

most old piano's i've played (i've had 2 restored uprights in the past for recital purposes) have been less than steller in regards to touch. looks and sound. I have 2 Beale's).

just my opinion there.

[rick]

my restored 1926 beale upright is amazing , it cost $1000 and i spent $3.5 making it new again

the great thing about an old vintage piano is the wood in the soundboard and the case
the drama is they are too old to really work ever again without $$$ thrown at them in blind faith

i have no idea about your brand is it german ..?

[DwaneHollands]

Hi Jamil,

Thanks for your input. I understand your sentiments about just getting a really good VST. It's just that I envisioned getting an upright piano at some time to record accoustically. Just the authenticity of it all. I've got some VST pianos and the M-Audio Prokeys 88 controller just drives me nuts at how badly the control and feel is. The keys drive me crazy and sensitivity is just plain absent.

I play a digital Yamaha Clavinova at church which I find both the touch and the sound to be incredible. Such a beautiful instrument to play. You can play quickly and softly at the same time. Yum. But there is a problem with it. It's with key's sticking. I play quite vigourously and throw myself into the role, and as a result I sweat while I play. Not profusely or anything. But I think the oils end up getting underneath the keys and making them sticky. So they can stick down. We took the piano to get serviced and they simply cleaned underneath the keys and voila, it's brand new again.

But 5 months later or so, one of the B keys are starting to stick again. Argh. It was an expensive service. So that's a bit problematic and we're trying to figure out ways to overcome it.

Sorry got way off track. But yeah man thanks for commenting!

I said before that I'd never record another guitar amp, since I had Amplitube 2. But now I don't even have amplitube installed. So I think I'd like to be able to experiment with accoustic piano recording. I just want a real piano, with real feel and real dynamics that I can crank on and maybe stumble across some great recording technique. I've got some good outboard now, so there's some hope.

I'm just hoping it's tuned at the moment and has a good tuning history. It would be immediatey useful - even it just needs a tune. Then I'd like to investigate getting the felts and hammers and strings changed to bring it back to full life. I like the idea of that.

The guy has said it's pre-1936 which is still handbuilt. It should mean the wood is quality and perhaps has matured nicely.

Hey Rick,

Here is the info I've found on wikipedia. It's an Australian made piano made by German immigrants. That's great about the re-furb project you did on the piano. $3.5K ain't bad to bring it back to full life and feel. Complete with vintage heritage!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wertheim_Piano

[jkhuri44]

option 1 - get a better controller

there are plenty out there with excellent touch, i never liked the m audio range, the keys are way too heavy...dont have the bounce of real pianos.

option 2 - and this is what i was getting at before...if the room you have to record your piano in has useable tones, then an upright will sound sweet...but just because it might be acoustic and dynamic, it might not be a good sound imo. uprights if not ideal...can and will sound amateurish.

[DwaneHollands]

option 1 - get a better controller

haha.

option 2 - and this is what i was getting at before...if the room you have to record your piano in has useable tones, then an upright will sound sweet...but just because it might be acoustic and dynamic, it might not be a good sound imo. uprights if not ideal...can and will sound amateurish.

Hmmm. Interesting. I'm working on my room treatments for my room. I've seen guys record uprights with the covers off. Why do they do that?

I've always thought if I get an upright it's going to sound honky. You know that honky tone. Nothing like a concert grand or anything. And I suppose I'm not too fussed if it doesn't work for every type of song. Mainly pictured it for accoustic guitar/folksy kinda vibe. I dunno.

If I listen to it and it's as brittle as an old tin shed, I may pass on it.

[jkhuri44]

well, grand pianos are recorded with covers off too...

same kinda deal, the sound is being generated from inside the piano, and most the time, u place mics in a room...so ur gonna get more sound if the lid is open.

my main poiint is that to even bother micing it...make sure it sounds good as a piano ..coz if it sounds ok in a room, its gonna sound fairly lame in a mic. if it sounds good in a room, chances are will sound pretty good recorded.

[rick]

mine has a set of see through wooden face covers so you can see and get at the strings top and bottom but it still has a slightly enclosed sound
we had to ruin another piano to get the wooden covers ( err actually two because the first set were too "open" and didnt sound right )
but the thing is it looks and sounds better then letting them go naked , and they sound and record about 15 times better with out the face boards on
then when they are enclosed and shut up with all the standing wave cancellations that the boxey case can bring
it heads you back into grand piano territory
the only reason an upright is honky tonk is its out of tune and the standing waves are having a party with all the disonance

for the new studios i have my eyes and mitts on elton johns c7 concert grand

he only tours every 5 years or so , i dont reckon he will mind if i use it in the meanwhile

but its best if you guys dont call him and rat me out , i am still working on the fine details

[jkhuri44]

im sure if i had elton's number, i wouldnt be working in an office.

[DwaneHollands]

Interesting. I didn't realise the honky tonk was a symptom of poor tuning! Clears that up.

Of course the standing wave cancellation would be affecting tone in this upright pianos! Never thought about that. Actually just had a thought that perhaps some strategically placed 32kg/m3 rockwool (wrapped in cotton?) could be a tool to adjust the tone of the instrument.

Couldn't hurt to experiment I suppose.

[rick]

tuning the sound of a piano will rockwool ....?
did you think of that yourself ..?

you will be an excellent recording engineer before you know it ... sooner even

[DwaneHollands]

tuning the sound of a piano will rockwool ....?
did you think of that yourself ..?

you will be an excellent recording engineer before you know it ... sooner even

ha ha. I don't know if you're joking or not. lol. Yeah I did think of that. And I do hope that's true. lol!

[jkhuri44]

rick is joking dwayne.

pianos have a few strings per note. and if they're out of tune by a few cents, the sound will have a honky tonk characteristic, which is what u get by some extremme chorusing settings...

rockwool wont fix up tuning...it might suck up some sound tho.

[rick]

no i was serious
i have had to "acoustically" tune every piano i have ever recorded
i leave the actual "musical" tuning to the experts

rockwool or actually i use tontine is a great way to settle down a piano acoustically that is a bit new sounding

and i cannot tell you the amount of times i have wrapped foam around the back of a rca 44 ribbon to cancel half the figure eight (making it kinda cardiod) when recording piano
keep on thinking and trying

jamil
time to work on your ... well i dont know but you read me wrong me thinks

[DwaneHollands]

rick is joking dwayne.

pianos have a few strings per note. and if they're out of tune by a few cents, the sound will have a honky tonk characteristic, which is what u get by some extremme chorusing settings...

rockwool wont fix up tuning...it might suck up some sound tho.

oh no, I didn't mean tune the piano. I suppose I should have said tune the tone of it. If it's cancelling frequencies out because of standing waves, I thought a little absorbtion might prevent the cancellation. Or maybe some diffusion. I dunno.

[jkhuri44]

it is no secret i have bad audio theory

[headman]

Pianos are a bit like people, when they get old they wear out, I'd say a pre 1936 piano (of any make) is asking for trouble. If you want a real upright, get a 20 year old Yamaha or Kawai, They'll cost more than a thousand, but That's all you will have to spend apart from a tune and regulation.

headman

[rick]

I just cannot agree with that I looked at dozens of yamaha and kawai
you need to go back 30-40 years to get soundboards that are even close
to the prewar stuff

of coarse a 80 year old piano felts and strings will be shot

but it's all fixable

but you cannot fix cheap wood
there are some nice u5 that have been imported from japan that
I would retract my feelings about but they are 7-8k
all that said most people would prefer to buy an average upright
over restoring a magic one

most people

[DwaneHollands]

I just cannot agree with that I looked at dozens of yamaha and kawai
you need to go back 30-40 years to get soundboards that are even close
to the prewar stuff

of coarse a 80 year old piano felts and strings will be shot

but it's all fixable

but you cannot fix cheap wood
there are some nice u5 that have been imported from japan that
I would retract my feelings about but they are 7-8k
all that said most people would prefer to buy an average upright
over restoring a magic one

most people

Ok. Got to check it out tonight. Way outta tune. Played it and a lot of the keys stick. That worries me. Does that just mean new felts underneath? Or the hammers aswell? Keys are rounded at the edges. Are key replacements feasible? Just wondering whether it's necessary in order to prevent keys from sticking. (I love the "corpse bride tim burton look" just wondering whether it's part of the problem.

What's a set of piano strings, fitting and tuning worth these days?
Felt and hammer replacements?

[DwaneHollands]

Oh the bottom end seemed quite weak. Is that just poor felts or a more serious problem. Midrange sounded more powerful.

But the sound was not harsh or anything. Round and warm, once you ignore the honky poor tuning.

[headman]

I keep forgetting that it's 2010 and that 1980 is now 30 years ago. The Yamaha's like the U1J and U 3's from that period are a really good piano and will be usable for many years to come. Apart from the strings and soundboard the keybeds and mechanisms (over a thousand moving parts) need to be in good shape otherwise the instrument will be more or less unplayable. Pianos (and organs) even of the same model are all different from each other you just have to pick one that you like the sound of and get it voiced and regulated to suit your needs.

EDIT: Dwane, just read your post about the keys sticking and that's way out of tune...these are not good indicators of a piano that's worth repairing. Also I noticed that you live in Darwin and the extremes of weather there are not likely to help any brand of piano built over 70 years ago.

headman

[Ben M]

Hi Dwane

Watch out for the pedal noise in these. They can be quite clunky (and boxy) and very noticible with sensitive mics when recording. They will also slip out of tune easily unless all the parts are in good order.
A good trick (for something unusual) with old uprights is to put thumb tacs on all the hammers.

[rick]

Hey what I forgot to mention is your in Darwin right?
I am willing to bet there isn't a good enough repair guy up there to cope will a full refelt
also have a good look at the soundboard the tropics could well have cracked it
if it's cracked or split it's game over
sticking keys are the least of your worries in Darwin
my brother lives in Darwin I love seeing his climate challenged stuff
one of his guitar just melted one day!

[rick]

What I would be doing is finding the piano restoration guys in your town and paying him 100 bucks to have alook a this or any piano that your curious about
he will know the local climate traps and probably the location of the right piano to restore
if you cannot find a local restorer that you feel good about
buying an ancient piano is a dumb idea
but I contest the same issues for any piano in Darwin will come up
so find a local expert me thinks

[DwaneHollands]

I keep forgetting that it's 2010 and that 1980 is now 30 years ago. The Yamaha's like the U1J and U 3's from that period are a really good piano and will be usable for many years to come. Apart from the strings and soundboard the keybeds and mechanisms (over a thousand moving parts) need to be in good shape otherwise the instrument will be more or less unplayable. Pianos (and organs) even of the same model are all different from each other you just have to pick one that you like the sound of and get it voiced and regulated to suit your needs.

EDIT: Dwane, just read your post about the keys sticking and that's way out of tune...these are not good indicators of a piano that's worth repairing. Also I noticed that you live in Darwin and the extremes of weather there are not likely to help any brand of piano built over 70 years ago.

headman

Hmm yeah. It's not looking too feasible at the moment. I wasn't actually in the market so to speak. Thought perhaps I could jump on an opportunity for a cheap piano. But I have to spend too much on it straight up to get it to be any kind of usable, which just makes it a money suck for now.

[DwaneHollands]

Hi Dwane

Watch out for the pedal noise in these. They can be quite clunky (and boxy) and very noticible with sensitive mics when recording. They will also slip out of tune easily unless all the parts are in good order.
A good trick (for something unusual) with old uprights is to put thumb tacs on all the hammers.

I didn't focus too much on the pedal noise. but I think you're right. I think it was noisy. I didn't think of that problem when recording! Thanks for the tips on the thumb tacks! I'll file that one away in my memory.

[DwaneHollands]

Hey what I forgot to mention is your in Darwin right?
I am willing to bet there isn't a good enough repair guy up there to cope will a full refelt
also have a good look at the soundboard the tropics could well have cracked it
if it's cracked or split it's game over
sticking keys are the least of your worries in Darwin
my brother lives in Darwin I love seeing his climate challenged stuff
one of his guitar just melted one day!

Actually I started thinking that this morning, about the quality of the repair guy. Or being that it's such a tiny market up here, the likelihood of him charging a kings ransom for it.

I didn't look too closely at the inside of the front board since it was poor light, but on the backboard of the piano I did notice some 30cm cracks in the wood. I think I'm going to pass on this and when I'm ready to spend more on a piano I'll seek one out. But I think before I do that I need to find a really good local tech first.

Regarding the melting guitar. I had a somewhat similar experience when I was 15. Our church rock band was playing in Alice Springs in the maximum security prison yard! There was zero breeze, since we were walled in. The keyboard players keyboard was an Ensoniq with the metal body. It was literally a hot plate. I accidently touched it and it was incredibly hot. The thing was playing up too. Organ sound just fedback something crazy. But while I was playing my guitar I was sweating profusely over it because of the heat and my sweat was evaporating on the guitar leaving just salt crystals behind! I was able to wipe the salt crystals off with a rag at the end of the day. I've never played anywhere that hot since!

[rick]

30cm cracks in the back wooden board
Well that's the spruce soundboard so game over
forget about it

maybe this thread will help somebody later down the line?

[DwaneHollands]

30cm cracks in the back wooden board
Well that's the spruce soundboard so game over
forget about it

maybe this thread will help somebody later down the line?

Yeah, well it's helped me a bunch! When I go looking next time, I'll be armed with some good information.

[chris p]

Any of you Beale owners out there looking for a spare set of 88 ivory and ebony keys? I've still got a set that I couldn't bear to throw out with the rest of the old dead beast.