Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

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Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Mickstape » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:05 am

Hi guys n girls.

I tracked a session on the weekend using one of the presonus live 16's and had a few issues with logic so i thought i'd ask if anyone has been using these consoles with logic and if they have had any issues at all.

I found that on occasion logic really lagged and in two instances it actually overloaded the cpu/ram and stopped tracking for a few bars, this really sucked because the two times it happened pretty much ruined the tracks for obvious reasons. The buffer was set at 256 samples so there was enough there for it to cope, well it has been fine with that setting before anyway.

I plan on ramping up the RAM in the macbook so this doesnt happen ever again, i've tracked a few sessions with logic and tools with up to 24 tracks in before and it's <the macbook> has never even broken a sweat so i'm wondering if on this occasion it was due to the console firewire card perhaps?

I switched over to the dedicated presonus "capture" DAW during the intermission and didn't have anymore problems for the rest of the night, in hindsight i should have just done that from the start but i had my doubts about capture, hence my starting off in Logic. I would have tracked using tools but alas i don't have the necessary rig. I should note that all the firmware, drivers and associated stuff was all the latest from presonus and logic so i'm pretty sure that it was just a ram/virtual memory problem.

I've hit the presonus forums, i just thought i'd drop a line here as the wealth of knowledge here is far superior to the other forums as you all should know, any help or comment would be great.

On a brighter note, the console really performed well, the band was happy (aside from the two tracks ruined of course) with FOH and the punters (all 15 of em!) loved the show. It was a shame that there wasn't a large crowd, all i can say was that the band delivered one of the best Aussie blues/rock saturday nights i've experienced for a long time.

I'll post a little snippet for your listening pleasure a bit later on. For those who wanted to know, The band was Indiana Phoenix led by Brian Cain (Winner of the Golden Harmonica at the CMF this year)

Mick
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Alistair » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:01 pm

I've had similar issues through Logic as well (different interface). I'm on Logic 8. To be honest, I've found it a bit buggy and painful, and now PT9 is native, I'm thinking of switching. The sheer number of things Logic can do is great, but I find it a bit too unstable to do things like live recordings. I've had it randomly stop tracking one input before in a session, whilst the rest kept going. It was saveable, but not really a great thing to happen.

And it overloads fairly often on my computer when I get up to 10-15 simple plugs. A bit of a pain in the arse.
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Chris H » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:00 pm

I regularly record 16 treks in Logic. Have done so for 9 yrs with issues while tracking on 3 or 4 occasions only. I avoid Plugins mostly when live recording many traks at once so it's been very dependable for me. Mo
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Mickstape » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:52 pm

Cheers for the replies fella's.

As i mentioned I've never had any dramas with logic, but then again i've always used the ensemble to track with so that may be the problem. I just figured because the live 16 has an on-board fire-studio card logic would utilize the on-board dsp to it's maximum effect.

Anyway i've decided on never using logic in conjunction with a tracking session via the live 16 again. I'll use the capture program that came with it and avoid the drama.

On another note, there is an annoying click that is frequent on the bass track, it sounds like it's actually clipping/distorting but on closer examination of the wave it's well within the headroom and when it was coming through FOH there wasnt the same sound, i'm wondering how i can remove it without having to go to extreme measures.

Anyone recommend a plug or prog that will eliminate this problem? I've attached a picture to the link to the track if you feel like having a look n listen. I'd really like some feedback on the session if you guys can find the time. It's an mp3, yeah yeah i know, 320kb stereo, its not mixed fully, i'm around 30% in so far. Be brutally honest.

Cheers

Mick

http://www.mediafire.com/?dmxh5k7r45kt2c9 (image of bass track with click at start of phrase/note)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/8mp9f1i1v ... %20Mix.mp3
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Mickstape » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:27 pm

sorry guys the link was dirty.

http://www.mediafire.com/?8mp9f1i1v0p9qad
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Kurt » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:25 pm

Dodgy lead? I occasionally find crackles on recordings I didn't hear live.

Otherwise the only other time I see odd 1 sample spikes is when stuff isn't clocked properly. Not possible if everything is going through one A-D interface?

A low-pass filter may help smooth it out, you need to listen and make sure the cure isn't worse than the disease. Otherwise have a look at any of the click/crackle removal plugs/programs. There are a few free ones and some 'orribly expensive ones!
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby mylesgm » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:17 am

On the bass topic I've found that some electric bass players cause the string to touch the pickup and when that happens there is a spike. Can't get rid of it because its in their playing style but cant really be heard from their speakers only DI's. Not sure if thats whats happening here...

As to Logic I've found it so severely buggy and unreliable that even though I teach it at NMIT I refuse to use it for any professional work. Its ruined performances, recordings, mixing sessions in so many embarrassing ways that I just dont want to tempt fate. Yes it does do a lot of things straight out of the box but if those things are unreliable I want no piece of it. PT (and now esp PT9) and Digital Performer have been my main stays for 10 years even though I own copies of all three for the odd time that I have a client deliver a mix in logic. I've had all kinds of problems but as some people find it solid I just put it down to computer weirdness and choose not to even go there.

In regards to the Presonus Live 16, I watched a performance recently where there were using one and when the recording was running there were glitches in the FOH. They turned off the recording and then it worked fine. I wasn't operating so I couldn't tell you anymore than that but I chatted to the guys briefly after the performance and they said that they'd had a number of problems with the recording side of the desk but it was their first outing and they thought they had a driver issue. FWIW...

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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Mickstape » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:10 am

mylesgm wrote:On the bass topic I've found that some electric bass players cause the string to touch the pickup and when that happens there is a spike. Can't get rid of it because its in their playing style but cant really be heard from their speakers only DI's. Not sure if thats whats happening here...


I think you hit the nail on the head there Myles, thanks mate. Like Kurt said it's only one f**king sample so if filtering and plugs don't fix it i'll be in there with a slicer and cursing for a few hours.

mylesgm"As to Logic I've found it so severely buggy and unreliable that even though I teach it at NMIT I refuse to use it for any professional work. Its ruined performances, recordings, mixing sessions in so many embarrassing ways that I just dont want to tempt fate.[/quote] Embarrassing. Yes it was one of those moments, i cursed loud enough that the band heard it.

[quote="mylesgm"In regards to the Presonus Live 16, I watched a performance recently where there were using one and when the recording was running there were glitches in the FOH. They turned off the recording and then it worked fine. I wasn't operating so I couldn't tell you anymore than that but I chatted to the guys briefly after the performance and they said that they'd had a number of problems with the recording side of the desk but it was their first outing and they thought they had a driver issue. FWIW...M[/quote]

To be honest i don't think it was a driver issue, i upgraded the firmware and d/l the latest drivers a few hours before the gig. I think it was just a combination of RAM and low disk space (only 45gb available on hdd). I'll be doing a few more sessions over the next two weeks so i'll definitely see whether it was a computer problem or if it is in fact the console.

[quote="Kurt wrote:
Dodgy lead? I occasionally find crackles on recordings I didn't hear live.

Otherwise the only other time I see odd 1 sample spikes is when stuff isn't clocked properly. Not possible if everything is going through one A-D interface?

A low-pass filter may help smooth it out, you need to listen and make sure the cure isn't worse than the disease. Otherwise have a look at any of the click/crackle removal plugs/programs. There are a few free ones and some 'orribly expensive ones!


Thanks Kurt. I think Myles picked it with the pickup comment. And yeah some of those plugs are 'orribly expensive arnt they. If i was mixing down on the pc i'm sure there would be ways around that... Not that i condone it of course.

On a another topic, stage real estate was practically nil, anyone who has been to catho pub on the central coast would know what the inside room is like. Having said that i tried my best to convince them that it wasn't the most conducive environment to tracking live but they wanted it tracked so tracked it was. I'm having a horrible time trying to bring out his vocals without bringing the cymbals forward, the singer was on a wireless rig and was practically standing on the kit so every time i compress and eq it sends me bonkers. I think some multiband should fix it.

Thanks guys.
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Kurt » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:20 pm

That's the beauty of live recording, many sins can be forgiven..

I did some live stuff for a band a few years ago, recorded 5 sets over 3 days. I put together rough mixes of all the sets, gave them to the band to decide which takes/songs etc they might use for a live album. I didn't hear back from them for about a year so I (foolishly in hindsight) figured they had decided not to go ahead with the live album and deleted everything. About a week after I'd done that the band rang me to discuss..

Band: "Yeah mate, we've got a list of the songs we wanna use from that live stuff we did"
Me: "umm, about that..."

I ended up trying to make the roughs that I'd given them sound like they could have been from the same show and they released it, making a feature of the "rough as guts, no studio magic" nature of it.

Mickstape wrote:On a another topic, stage real estate was practically nil, anyone who has been to catho pub on the central coast would know what the inside room is like. Having said that i tried my best to convince them that it wasn't the most conducive environment to tracking live but they wanted it tracked so tracked it was. I'm having a horrible time trying to bring out his vocals without bringing the cymbals forward, the singer was on a wireless rig and was practically standing on the kit so every time i compress and eq it sends me bonkers. I think some multiband should fix it.

Thanks guys.
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby DwaneHollands » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:19 am

Mick,

Dude loved the song. That was very enjoyable. I really liked the mixing too. Loved the punchiness, the guitar tones, the harp at the end and the vocalist. Oh loved the organ too! The Leslie spin up was great.
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Mickstape » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:08 am

Hey thanks Dwayne, as i said that was only a 30% mix, just basic leveling and a little HP/LP filters on the drums to get it tighter than it was. Should hear the tracks now they have been totally tweaked, unfortunately due to the lack of a decent crowd the live feel has all but disappeared which shits me. It's hard finding the balance between polished and polished to the point where it sounds like a studio recording. Any tips on retaining this feel T'Rockers?

I thought i would update on this thread. I've been meaning to but just havn't had to the time really. Although i have plenty of time now as i have really done some damage to my foot after a 4wd'ing mission down the back of our property.


I mentioned earlier that the problem was with Logic/Macbook not being able process the amount of I/O during the session but Capture doing an ok job.

Well after another session recently i have lost all faith in this console and it's associated S/W. It seems there is a clock issue with this board, i found that the last session recorded (after the intermission) has some tracks that are up to 4 bars out, there are also sections in one of the sub groups that have missed around 300-500 samples of the track and in some cases even a whole bar. It is a real shame and ultimately the reason why i will not ever use this piece of shit again.

Stay away from the Studiolive series if you require them for tracking, they hold up well for live duties (FOH/Monitor) but don't take a chance that an epic live show recording will have parts of it (during the best song of the night mind you) missing.
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby mylesgm » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:40 pm

that looks truly disappointing. I always have a least a stereo recorder to make certain that if there problems like that with any live recording at least I have some sort of backup.
I can't believe that recording of audio can be implemented so poorly. Even a basic video recorder records far more digital information than a decent tracking session and I have never had one of those fail. Even that crappiest digital camera will record video with out glitches and audio should be the same.

Glad to hear your experience though as I know a few people who were really keen to get the all-in-one vibe going with the series. I'll be warning them off.

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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby mylesgm » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:56 am

Maybe you need to investigate this new beastie.

http://soniccircus.com/Midas-Venice-F-32-w-PT9#
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Kurt » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:53 pm

To be fair, I have had a search for dropouts and related issues. There seem to be very few complaints, and most end u being either a computer issue or a PEBKAC (RTFM).

Not saying this is the case here, but surely a little more investigation might sort the problem out. If not, send me the desk, I'll take a chance on it ;)
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Re: Presonus Live 16 - Blues session

Postby Mickstape » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:13 am

Thanks for the link Myles. I've been pondering a Venice or Heritage for a while. Maybe in 6 months i might consider buying one.

I've done some serious damage to my foot playing silly buggars in the bush a couple of weeks ago down the back of our property up here on the coast, i'm looking at being bed/couch ridden for the next 10-12 weeks at the minimum, no walking, weight bearing or even having it not elevated unless its to get into the bath or go to toilet which sucks big balls. I go for my op on monday where some Eric Bana lookalike is going to do some horrific shit to my foot while im under. Should be fun.

Kurt, the console is on ebay, bid on it if you like. For TR members i'll take a couple of hundred off the asking price with free courier to your door. The console has done two tracking gigs for a total of 5 and a bit hours use. It's practically brand new. 2 days left on the auction.

TBO i use the mackie 24/4 i bought off Steve L more than any of the 3 consoles i own for FOH, it's a great desk and does everything i need to keep a show going. So i'm not going to miss the StudioLive, too much embarrassment and headaches, i will miss the coin i'm losing though but thats life.
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