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Overheads - small stages
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Overheads - small stages
I know it's often thought that overheads aren't needed on small stages due to spill in (especially compressed) vocal mics, but I wonder if this is a product of laziness rather that best practise?
Next gig I'm planning on close micing cymbals as much as is possible and trying out some heavy handed eq to leave only the highs to add some light and sizzle. Hopefully I can find a curve that works sympathetically with the spill and what is heard accoustically.
What are other's feeling about overheads in this scenario?
Next gig I'm planning on close micing cymbals as much as is possible and trying out some heavy handed eq to leave only the highs to add some light and sizzle. Hopefully I can find a curve that works sympathetically with the spill and what is heard accoustically.
What are other's feeling about overheads in this scenario?
Lucas Martin
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Re: Overheads - small stages
Small stages generally means small room which generally means smaller PA. Generally.
I'd watch out for taking over the frequency range (with OH mics) that the vocal needs to be clear and up front. You don't want punters wincing every time a cymbal is hit. Rather than being a product of laziness perhaps it's just a product of sensibleness.
What size stage/room and PA are you talking about?
I'd watch out for taking over the frequency range (with OH mics) that the vocal needs to be clear and up front. You don't want punters wincing every time a cymbal is hit. Rather than being a product of laziness perhaps it's just a product of sensibleness.
What size stage/room and PA are you talking about?
Ben Moore
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Ben M - Valued Contributor
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Re: Overheads - small stages
Cymbals and snares cut through.
On small stages I'm happy with a kick mic, and maybe a snare mic to give the sn some presence/focus.
Otherwise you could go with a 3 mic, 1 x kick and two overheads that are more focussed on snare and toms, but give you a little hi-hat and cymbal.
On small stages I'm happy with a kick mic, and maybe a snare mic to give the sn some presence/focus.
Otherwise you could go with a 3 mic, 1 x kick and two overheads that are more focussed on snare and toms, but give you a little hi-hat and cymbal.
Whitten
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Re: Overheads - small stages
For the particular room I'm thinking of capacity is about 200 hundered people. You guys are most likely right - with both of the answers given having been advice I've given myself.
Lazinesss was the wrong word to use.
Trying out the method I suggested earlier would be for a subtle effect and by no means would I destroy the balance of the mix just to satisfy my want to control cymbals..
Lazinesss was the wrong word to use.
Trying out the method I suggested earlier would be for a subtle effect and by no means would I destroy the balance of the mix just to satisfy my want to control cymbals..
Lucas Martin
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Re: Overheads - small stages
i hear you luke...
i dont mind a bit of overhead/ cymbal.
the thing i always miss is ride - so often close mic that if im in a small space and not using overheads, so my mic up would look like
1 - kik
2 - sn
3 - hat
4 - ride
5 - rack
6 - floor
by comparison - in a large room/ full mic up i would be something like
1 - kik in
2 - kik out
3 - sn top
4 - sn bottom
5 - sn 2 (i like to have a "live cracking" sound, and a "thud dead" sound for lots of bands as diff songs need diff things)
6 - hat
7 - ride
8 - rack
9 - floor
10 - OH mono (behind drummers head, compressed hard)
11 - OH cymbals L
12 - OH cymbals R
i dont mind a bit of overhead/ cymbal.
the thing i always miss is ride - so often close mic that if im in a small space and not using overheads, so my mic up would look like
1 - kik
2 - sn
3 - hat
4 - ride
5 - rack
6 - floor
by comparison - in a large room/ full mic up i would be something like
1 - kik in
2 - kik out
3 - sn top
4 - sn bottom
5 - sn 2 (i like to have a "live cracking" sound, and a "thud dead" sound for lots of bands as diff songs need diff things)
6 - hat
7 - ride
8 - rack
9 - floor
10 - OH mono (behind drummers head, compressed hard)
11 - OH cymbals L
12 - OH cymbals R
Gareth Stuckey
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Re: Overheads - small stages
I've not seen a mono overhead used like that live before. Doesn't it capture too much spill?
Lucas Martin
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Re: Overheads - small stages
gigpiglet wrote:
10 - OH mono (behind drummers head, compressed hard)
I like that Gareth!! Do you mean at head height?
Ian Dare
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Re: Overheads - small stages
More often than not,for a small venue I just mic kick, snr and two overhead mics, Glyn Johns method.
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Re: Overheads - small stages
ian/ luke
yes a little above head height..
and of course depends on the band, if its a cranking loud rock band, it wont work, but i dont do much of that kind of stuff.
often times i get my whole drum sound from kick/sn and that overhead.
maybe a "sprinkle" of the stereo overheads
maybe a bit of toms if they need it. (and to put some verb on them)
but if i was short on channels or something, i could certainly work with the 3 - kick/snare/mono oh
yes a little above head height..
and of course depends on the band, if its a cranking loud rock band, it wont work, but i dont do much of that kind of stuff.
often times i get my whole drum sound from kick/sn and that overhead.
maybe a "sprinkle" of the stereo overheads
maybe a bit of toms if they need it. (and to put some verb on them)
but if i was short on channels or something, i could certainly work with the 3 - kick/snare/mono oh
Gareth Stuckey
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Re: Overheads - small stages
I would have liked to try that on the Brewster Brothers recently... Will have to try soon.
It just occurred to me that you could place the tom verb on a prefade aux and just use the tom mics as a "trigger" for the verb. Probably a better way to do it with groups.... I'm limited to a little mixwix at the mo' - can't wait to get some groups again!
It just occurred to me that you could place the tom verb on a prefade aux and just use the tom mics as a "trigger" for the verb. Probably a better way to do it with groups.... I'm limited to a little mixwix at the mo' - can't wait to get some groups again!
Lucas Martin
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Re: Overheads - small stages
I do mostly metal/rock bands in a 200 cap room, I fully mic the kit if I can. I have 8 channels on my desk dedicated to drums.
Kick 1
Kick 2 (for second kick drum rather than second kick mic)
Snare
Rack 1
Rack 2
Floor
OH L
OH R
If the promoter cheaps out, my budget rig is K/S/OHs
My overheads tend to be directly above ride and hats if possible, at around head height.
Kick 1
Kick 2 (for second kick drum rather than second kick mic)
Snare
Rack 1
Rack 2
Floor
OH L
OH R
If the promoter cheaps out, my budget rig is K/S/OHs
My overheads tend to be directly above ride and hats if possible, at around head height.
Kurt Neist
Chief cook and bottle washer - Metalworx
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Re: Overheads - small stages
Kick 2 (for second kick drum rather than second kick mic)
BTW - I never put 1 mic between 2 toms - that is a pet peeve of mine.
for some reason i imagined using the 1 mic for 2 toms method for 1 mic for 2 kicks. haha. i'm just picturing a metal drummers face while telling her/him 'i do it all the time, sounds great!'. hah.
BTW - I never put 1 mic between 2 toms - that is a pet peeve of mine.
for some reason i imagined using the 1 mic for 2 toms method for 1 mic for 2 kicks. haha. i'm just picturing a metal drummers face while telling her/him 'i do it all the time, sounds great!'. hah.
Todd Dixon
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Re: Overheads - small stages
Quite a few drummers have told me about playing venues where they have had to choose which kick they want mic'ed up! With that in mind and the limitations of my desk/multicore/mic cabinet, sharing a mic between two toms seems pretty reasonable.
toddd wrote:Kick 2 (for second kick drum rather than second kick mic)
BTW - I never put 1 mic between 2 toms - that is a pet peeve of mine.
for some reason i imagined using the 1 mic for 2 toms method for 1 mic for 2 kicks. haha. i'm just picturing a metal drummers face while telling her/him 'i do it all the time, sounds great!'. hah.
Kurt Neist
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Re: Overheads - small stages
gigpiglet wrote:by comparison - in a large room/ full mic up i would be something like
1 - kik in
2 - kik out
3 - sn top
4 - sn bottom
5 - sn 2 (i like to have a "live cracking" sound, and a "thud dead" sound for lots of bands as diff songs need diff things)
6 - hat
7 - ride
8 - rack
9 - floor
10 - OH mono (behind drummers head, compressed hard)
11 - OH cymbals L
12 - OH cymbals R
Too many mics.
Zack.
Zack Marshall
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Re: Overheads - small stages
...
Last edited by Ben M on Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ben Moore
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Website: http://www.harvestrecordings.com.au
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Ben M - Valued Contributor
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Re: Overheads - small stages
...
Last edited by Ben M on Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ben Moore
Harvest Recordings
Website: http://www.harvestrecordings.com.au
Facebook: http://www.faceback.com/harvestrecordings
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Facebook: http://www.faceback.com/harvestrecordings
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Ben M - Valued Contributor
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Re: Overheads - small stages
Ben, I'm sure Zack meant well... He might have even been joking. If it's the zack I'm thinking of then he knows Gareth personally.
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Re: Overheads - small stages
...
Last edited by Ben M on Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ben Moore
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Website: http://www.harvestrecordings.com.au
Facebook: http://www.faceback.com/harvestrecordings
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Ben M - Valued Contributor
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Re: Overheads - small stages
Ben M wrote:That would leave me looking very foolish Nick.
Your very very naughty Zack... or whoever you are. All the best to ya.
You weren't to know, Ben! Anyways, it might not be the Zack I'm thinking of. Regardless, listen to Ben and put yer name in yer signature Zack!
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waitup - Frequent Contributor
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Re: Overheads - small stages
hey zack... if you do put your details in your signature... we will figure out if you know me.
;-)
but to the point.
yes it is "too many" mics in a lot of ways
and i wouldn't do that as standard. but sometimes its only just enough to do whats needed!
;-)
but to the point.
yes it is "too many" mics in a lot of ways
and i wouldn't do that as standard. but sometimes its only just enough to do whats needed!
Gareth Stuckey
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Re: Overheads - small stages
Yes it's me mate. Just poking fun at your spec.
Back on topic in response the the OP, this is one of those questions that only you can answer. Put 'em up, push 'em up and decide if they are detrimental or beneficial to the mix. You may have a very soft drummer who is light on cymbals (there must be a couple of drummers like this, right?), and by asking a bunch of people what their thoughts are could be totally irrelevant if we have all been living with heavy-handed drummers for the past while. Then again, you're drum sound as a whole (not just cymbals) may come from your OH's mainly. So throw 'em up and be the judge.
Now, my opinion. So this shouldn't affect you at all as this is only what works for ME and the situations I find myself in. I haven't used OH's in months. Then again, I haven't been on BIG stages. I would only use OH's for cymbals and I have never really found myself in want of more of them once I'm out front. In 500 cap rooms I seem to find myself trying my best to control how much cymbal I get out front, in 1500-2000 cap rooms I often feel that just the right amount is bleeding through. I feel that my tom mics are probably putting a fair bit in the mix, and if you're careful with the EQ of those, you can balance the cymbals nicely.
But next time I do think I'll be needing some extra sizzle, I'll be throwing up under-heads instead - I find OH's capture a bit of everything but not super solid sounding (if that makes sense), whereas under-heads allow for more focus on the cymbals and now you have a drum kit you can really control...
Just my opinion though.
Back on topic in response the the OP, this is one of those questions that only you can answer. Put 'em up, push 'em up and decide if they are detrimental or beneficial to the mix. You may have a very soft drummer who is light on cymbals (there must be a couple of drummers like this, right?), and by asking a bunch of people what their thoughts are could be totally irrelevant if we have all been living with heavy-handed drummers for the past while. Then again, you're drum sound as a whole (not just cymbals) may come from your OH's mainly. So throw 'em up and be the judge.
Now, my opinion. So this shouldn't affect you at all as this is only what works for ME and the situations I find myself in. I haven't used OH's in months. Then again, I haven't been on BIG stages. I would only use OH's for cymbals and I have never really found myself in want of more of them once I'm out front. In 500 cap rooms I seem to find myself trying my best to control how much cymbal I get out front, in 1500-2000 cap rooms I often feel that just the right amount is bleeding through. I feel that my tom mics are probably putting a fair bit in the mix, and if you're careful with the EQ of those, you can balance the cymbals nicely.
But next time I do think I'll be needing some extra sizzle, I'll be throwing up under-heads instead - I find OH's capture a bit of everything but not super solid sounding (if that makes sense), whereas under-heads allow for more focus on the cymbals and now you have a drum kit you can really control...
Just my opinion though.
Zack Marshall
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Re: Overheads - small stages
totally agree on the overhead/ under head point.
my vocal miss nearly always (even on the 1000-2000 cap venues you mention) give me enough of that stuff
thats why i love a ride mic (from underneath) with hats and ride, i feel like i cover everything i need to 99% of the time.
a couple of crash hits come through the (everything else) mics
the mon overhead thing i do is for a "drum sound" not a cymbal overhead at all..
my vocal miss nearly always (even on the 1000-2000 cap venues you mention) give me enough of that stuff
thats why i love a ride mic (from underneath) with hats and ride, i feel like i cover everything i need to 99% of the time.
a couple of crash hits come through the (everything else) mics
the mon overhead thing i do is for a "drum sound" not a cymbal overhead at all..
Gareth Stuckey
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