Getting a great tom sound without EQ

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Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Wiz » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:08 am

How many of you can succesfully get a great tom sound, without shitloads of EQ?

I can get a good tom sound, but I have to do it with eq, by boosting whatever the fundamental note of that partiuclar tom is, then by removing a boat load of low mid stuff (say 300 to 500 with wide Q) and then adding attack.

I have tried, many different mics and positions.

I can get good kick and snare sounds without such drastic EQ, and I am not unhappy with the tom sounds I get, just looking to see if others are doing it differently and if there is something I could do or change, to improve things...
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Drumstruck » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:01 pm

Hey Peter - is this on particular drums or generally? If it's one kit then a change of skins may be an answer.

If generally, what sort of tom sound are you after? I found a great sound last night using a germanium pre, but it may not be the same as your great sound ;)
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Wiz » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:11 pm

Drumstruck wrote:Hey Peter - is this on particular drums or generally? If it's one kit then a change of skins may be an answer.

If generally, what sort of tom sound are you after? I found a great sound last night using a germanium pre, but it may not be the same as your great sound ;)



its always my kit. Though in general I find any tom I have recorded I have to do the EQ thing I mentioned on.

These are new heads, but thats not really it.

A change of pre wont do it either, been there doing that... 8)

Tried different mics (57, 421, NT5s OM5s D6 (floor tom, doesnt that sound like ass)

I am just curious, how anyone is getting really good tom sounds , sans EQ

as far as tom sounds go, you know, natural , good , full, anything in the toontrack series of tom sounds would be a good example.
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Kurt » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:28 pm

Could it be your room or the positioning within the room that is causing the issue? Do they sound ok soloed then turn to shit as you add other mics in?
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Paul Maybury » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:54 pm

Close micing with directional mics will need eq. Try omni's or more distant micing.
Throw away your cymbals or overdub them.
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Wiz » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:56 pm

its not the room...

I think it might just be the nature of the beast... unless, you guys are all getting great tom sounds with close mics and not using EQ 8)
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Wiz » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:57 pm

Paul Maybury wrote:Close micing with directional mics will need eq. Try omni's or more distant micing.
Throw away your cymbals or overdub them.
Cheers,
Paul



I think you might be right.
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby W.P.Keighran » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:44 am

I'm in the same boat as you here (usually) but not too long ago a friend of mine came to Linear to track a session and needed my help patching everything in.
He asked for RE20's on the top and bottom of the rack tom which I summed on the console and routed to 1 channel of the ampex mm1200. We did the same with the floor tom only with EV868. I don't usually do top and bottom mic. We did however use the same Sytek pre's I probably would use most sessions for toms with RE20's on them, they have tonnes of gain and no EQ but I did use the HP filter on the console before hitting the tape machine, no boosting or cutting anywhere though and it was our rack tom (but the drummers floor tom).
I'm not sure if there was some sort of phase cancelling position magic going on or if it was due to the fact that I didn't have to gain the pre's up as much to get my level because I was summing both the mics to the one channel but i'm telling you it was different and awesome. There was sweet-F-all spill from the rest of the kit (including cymbals), i'm talkin 90/10 ratio and there was tone there that was usually what I try to obtain with EQ. We were going for a darker more toneful tom sound (70's elton john blah blah blah) and I know my friend Evan did no EQ moves on the mix that went to mastering.

pretty cool,
think i'm a convert.
haven't had a chance yet to put it back to practice but I will.
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Wiz » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:40 am

W.P.Keighran wrote:I'm in the same boat as you here (usually) but not too long ago a friend of mine came to Linear to track a session and needed my help patching everything in.
He asked for RE20's on the top and bottom of the rack tom which I summed on the console and routed to 1 channel of the ampex mm1200. We did the same with the floor tom only with EV868. I don't usually do top and bottom mic. We did however use the same Sytek pre's I probably would use most sessions for toms with RE20's on them, they have tonnes of gain and no EQ but I did use the HP filter on the console before hitting the tape machine, no boosting or cutting anywhere though and it was our rack tom (but the drummers floor tom).
I'm not sure if there was some sort of phase cancelling position magic going on or if it was due to the fact that I didn't have to gain the pre's up as much to get my level because I was summing both the mics to the one channel but i'm telling you it was different and awesome. There was sweet-F-all spill from the rest of the kit (including cymbals), i'm talkin 90/10 ratio and there was tone there that was usually what I try to obtain with EQ. We were going for a darker more toneful tom sound (70's elton john blah blah blah) and I know my friend Evan did no EQ moves on the mix that went to mastering.

pretty cool,
think i'm a convert.
haven't had a chance yet to put it back to practice but I will.



Hey thanks for that.... Re20s, never used one.

Did you manage to snap a picky of the setup?

I am gunna top and bottom mic a Tom today and give it a run, will have to use 57s for this today....

I also, have never removed the bottom skin and mic,d from underneath will get that on the todo list today too.

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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby jkhuri44 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:53 am

have you tried condensor mic on a tom? just 1 , to see if you get the same issue. ,maybe you dont have enough for all toms...or maybe you do :-)
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Wiz » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:59 am

jkhuri44 wrote:have you tried condensor mic on a tom? just 1 , to see if you get the same issue. ,maybe you dont have enough for all toms...or maybe you do :-)



gonna move on to those today... 8)


I really have only ever used dynamics.
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby The Tasmanian » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:22 am

Most top engineers and producers have been miking under toms for the last 30-40 years.
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Drumstruck » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:27 am

The Tasmanian wrote:Most top engineers and producers have been miking under toms for the last 30-40 years.


And a lot of "not-so-top" engineers too..... I liked the results from a ribbon centred on my BD resonants so much that I've put one under my floor toms now. One ribbon does 3 floor toms as an underhead.

Paul Maybury wrote:......Throw away your cymbals or overdub them.
Cheers,
Paul


Nooooooo !!!! If I can't take my cymbals I'm not going %-(

+1 on the RE20s (or RE320s in my case) - very versatile.
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Wiz » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:50 am

The Tasmanian wrote:Most top engineers and producers have been miking under toms for the last 30-40 years.



Hi Chris

is that to combine with top mikes, or do you mean removing the resonant heads and micing inside the tom, ala like you might on a inside kick mic?

thanks

Peter
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby The Tasmanian » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:36 pm

Either set-up Peter,
The top is for the attack, the bottom mic is for the note/ low end extension.
Although I rarely record toms with no bottom skin.
With a bottom skin, the bottom mic also extends the length of the note - at a guess even 3-4 times longer in length of note than the top head.
Its a must for floortoms, especially if they are hit firmly. no need for EQ.
The gentler the playing - the less the need for under mics on say rack toms.

RE20's do a dam good job on floortom top, underneath mic is not as important as the top, because its always ends up lower in the balance to the top mic.
I can use almost anything under a floortom - as long as it has a reasonable extension to the lower freqs.

Also, If its a gentle played kit, instead of direct under mic's, as mentioned here by Ian, I sometimes throw a ribbon down low to get a picture of the low end of the toms/kick , near the floortom - away from the snare.
But cymbal spill and room reflections start to come into play.
Its gotta be a nice sounding room.
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby Wiz » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:36 pm

The Tasmanian wrote:Either set-up Peter,
The top is for the attack, the bottom mic is for the note/ low end extension.
Although I rarely record toms with no bottom skin.
With a bottom skin, the bottom mic also extends the length of the note - at a guess even 3-4 times longer in length of note than the top head.
Its a must for floortoms, especially if they are hit firmly. no need for EQ.
The gentler the playing - the less the need for under mics on say rack toms.

RE20's do a dam good job on floortom top, underneath mic is not as important as the top, because its always ends up lower in the balance to the top mic.
I can use almost anything under a floortom - as long as it has a reasonable extension to the lower freqs.

Also, If its a gentle played kit, instead of direct under mic's, as mentioned here by Ian, I sometimes throw a ribbon down low to get a picture of the low end of the toms/kick , near the floortom - away from the snare.
But cymbal spill and room reflections start to come into play.
Its gotta be a nice sounding room.


Thanks Chris

Great info, I really appreciate it.
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Re: Getting a great tom sound without EQ

Postby jasound » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:00 pm

One of the two mics usually the bottom will "most of the time" need to be phase reversed.
Phase check against each other and then the overheads.
I reckon double micing rack toms is unnecessary but floors can really benefit from it.
Unless its a crap sounding drum than its just twice as bad ; )
A few Re20s in this clip.

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