Why do people worship digital?

[heathen]

Kris I just rerad those rules and honestly 90% of tv add makers are obviously bending the rules and I don't understand why.

I remember a mate being over 1 night and I muted the tv when a certain add came on, he says "what did you do that for I did the audio in that", I said "maaaaate it's bloody annoying and it makes me want to tune out, sorry".

Everytime I hear a super loud add I immediately mute it, how many others do the same thing? I believe drawing an audience in will be more effective everytime with subtle sounds, and subliminal suggestion to maintain an artful aproach, or basically just talking straight about a product will capture more of peoples attention.

Loudness we all know is totally different to volume, dynamic controls and spectral manipulation are needed without doubt, but why do add makers think making things as loud as possible will attract sales? It's easy to keep within the guidelines shown and make something very loud, is it a competition between add makers or just stupidity or do the companies being advertised demand it? If art is concerned then making something sound hifi and intriguing is guaranteed to get people to listen.

Whenever I'm mixing an album I always take into account the loudness desired by the customer of the end product, some artists will just say make it f'ing loud, others will say "make it too loud and I'm gonna reject it". These days I've found a pretty good medium where I can keep the potential to be loud and still sound good there with quite a lot of dynamic material intact which may be removed later in mastering or in case such rediculous loudness is not required it will sound good as is or further enhanced, I've always called it "loudness potential" , I dunno what others call it.

Some music or particular mixes have the potential based on freq content and dynamics to sound good really loud, others will never have that potential to still sound good at the same loudness be it through arrangement or freq content issues, even though that loudness can be achieved it will sound plain bad. This is where I start thinking that an album should really only be as loud as it's most poorly arranged track allows, this will allow the better ones space and more depth to really shine when turned up by the end listener, in my opinion.

Do adds ever get rejected because they are too loud? A lot sound like someone strapped a C2 on everthing in crush mode, which is probably the case. Some are so harsh and annoying they are just wrong from an audio perspective even though some will say "it's art man there are no rules", geez i hate that and there should be stricter rules when advertising is concerened. There should be some type of regulation on average frequency content relative to the duration of the advert.

Some adverts leave you feeling like you've just been the victim of a home invasion.

Anyway I'm just interested and these are my observations as a viewer, I've never mixed any audio specifically aimed at tv broadcast, but probably will in the future if any work of that nature comes in, if it does I will remember what really annoys me and these will be first things I take into account with any project.

[Martin]

like anything, it takes a few go's to get it right, i find it very different from mixing music specifically

nothing i've done has been too loud actually its sometimes been the opposite, it still sounds good that the client would be happy with it but some ads really hit it well where its not in your face loud but very clear and balanced

you're also working with lots of different sources, you might get music from one guy, effects from another, do the dialogue yourself and you've got to make them all work together

more than loud ads, i hate ads where the voiceover yells at you

[heathen]

like anything, it takes a few go's to get it right, i find it very different from mixing music specifically

nothing i've done has been too loud actually its sometimes been the opposite, it still sounds good that the client would be happy with it but some ads really hit it well where its not in your face loud but very clear and balanced

you're also working with lots of different sources, you might get music from one guy, effects from another, do the dialogue yourself and you've got to make them all work together

more than loud ads, i hate ads where the voiceover yells at you

Yeah me too, heh, I hate being yelled at.

I think this is where a standard and calibrated monitoring system would be very beneficial, does the tv industry have a standard set of monitors? Sort of like ns10's. Nearly every studio has them for reference.

[musikwerks]

Heath, OP48 is a bit like the United Nations. I think it came about after a series of viewer complaints and it was instituted to look like something was being done. It's so vague it's of little use. Most guys just pin the meters to -10 and mix away.

Thirteen, Farscape was a brilliant series. The company I worked for did every episode, right to the end, and we were all pretty bummed when it got canned. It was swift. We were notified and later that day they began destroying the sets. That series mad a lot of people in this town a lot of money. It also helped establish Sydney as a world class production base. Guy Gross and the Trackdown guys did amazing work on the soundtrack side too.

Re-reading my posts.... don't get me wrong, I agree that there are trashy uses of CGI, but I can't see how anyone who knows the amount of work that goes into a feature film could ever describe the CGI option as laziness. It's like saying you're lazy if you use a DAW, which just isn't the case. But if you still want to crucify it... I believe George Lucas is the man you're looking for. He is the grandfather of digital cinema in my opinion.

[Thirteen]

Heath, OP48 is a bit like the United Nations. I think it came about after a series of viewer complaints and it was instituted to look like something was being done. It's so vague it's of little use. Most guys just pin the meters to -10 and mix away.

Thirteen, Farscape was a brilliant series. The company I worked for did every episode, right to the end, and we were all pretty bummed when it got canned. It was swift. We were notified and later that day they began destroying the sets. That series mad a lot of people in this town a lot of money. It also helped establish Sydney as a world class production base. Guy Gross and the Trackdown guys did amazing work on the soundtrack side too.

Re-reading my posts.... don't get me wrong, I agree that there are trashy uses of CGI, but I can't see how anyone who knows the amount of work that goes into a feature film could ever describe the CGI option as laziness. It's like saying you're lazy if you use a DAW, which just isn't the case. But if you still want to crucify it... I believe George Lucas is the man you're looking for. He is the grandfather of digital cinema in my opinion.

Canning Farscape like that was really lame. It was so well done and had a huge fanbase. Strange how Ben Browder and Claudia Black finished up together on Stargate. There was some great characters and acting in Farscape, I especially liked Wayne Pigram as Scorpius and Lani Tupu as Crais, but all of the principal cast were great. I would bet that the Australian crew would have impressed the American producers in terms of getting maximum mileage for their budgets. Guy and Trackdown always do an A level job with whatever they undertake.

[Adam Dempsey]

Kris I just rerad those rules and honestly 90% of tv add makers are obviously bending the rules and I don't understand why.

Um, just as with (commercial) radio, the stations exist as businesses... to make $... to air ads.
The music/film/sitcom/whatever is the filler.
They do what they do because they get results - results from people who feel powerless to do anything about it. So powerless most don't even think about doing anything about it.

Would the stations listen to their listeners/viewers telling them they're tired of being yelled at during commercials, or the repetition that so many people keeping their radios "locked on" to a station believe is representative of the music industry?

Well, action speaks louder than words.
Support independent media (radio/tv/cinema/online), or turn it off, but tell the ignorant networks where you're now spending your listening/viewing time - and why. Tell them you'll tell 10 others, and ask each of them to do the same. Use SpaceBook, whatever.

I should post the letter I sent to F*X FM years ago...


No dynamics in modern music? No, it's just way too common. I just had two separate clients today, including an ARIA Award winner, requesting to keep their projects right out of the loudness war battle field.

CGI? See the making of The Dark Knight. Most stunt shots were real, with CGI used to remove protective mattresses, or even the IMAX cameras, from within the frame (due to their inherent optics determining required placement).
I can respect that (although Star Wars eps 1-3 or Indiana Crystal Skull Jones it is not).
my 2c..

[heathen]

Kris I just rerad those rules and honestly 90% of tv add makers are obviously bending the rules and I don't understand why.

Um, just as with (commercial) radio, the stations exist as businesses... to make $... to air ads.
The music/film/sitcom/whatever is the filler.
They do what they do because they get results - results from people who feel powerless to do anything about it. So powerless most don't even think about doing anything about it.

Would the stations listen to their listeners/viewers telling them they're tired of being yelled at during commercials, or the repetition that so many people keeping their radios "locked on" to a station believe is representative of the music industry?

Well, action speaks louder than words.
Support independent media (radio/tv/cinema/online), or turn it off, but tell the ignorant networks where you're now spending your listening/viewing time - and why. Tell them you'll tell 10 others, and ask each of them to do the same. Use SpaceBook, whatever.

I should post the letter I sent to F*X FM years ago...


No dynamics in modern music? No, it's just way too common. I just had two separate clients today, including an ARIA Award winner, requesting to keep their projects right out of the loudness war battle field.

CGI? See the making of The Dark Knight. Most stunt shots were real, with CGI used to remove protective mattresses, or even the IMAX cameras, from within the frame (due to their inherent optics determining required placement).
I can respect that (although Star Wars eps 1-3 or Indiana Crystal Skull Jones it is not).
my 2c..

Yeah I agree Adam, more people should complain, but yeah I know a lot of people whoi just hit mute, balanced and suggestive is the best way to catch someones attention, some adverts do this really well, they sort of sneak in without being offensive and before you know you've just watched instead of being repulsed by it. I'd love to write letters about tv adds to stations but there is little point I believe.

CGI to remove mattresses and the like is good CGI, the real stunts are what really makes a film, but replacing stuntpeople with CGI is rediculous.

It's also good to know people are requesting un-smashed masters, sounds like they want to enjoy thier music and not be assauted by it, hopefully the end of the loud war is in sight. Masters without dynamics and with clipping are really just noise to me. Though I guess a lot of mixes would turn up to mastering already smashed to death, these are the hardest to deal with, leaving room for the mastering dude/dudet is essential in even getting a good master. So yeah getting unsmashed mixes and being asked not to smash them would be very refreshing.

Most novice mixers will usually equate a loud and clipped mix with getting a super loud master when in essence they are just shooting themselves in the foot and will usually get the opposite result if loud is what they think they want.

Nothing worse for me than getting a project to mix and dragging the tracks in to find maxed out tracks withing the mix, very frustrating, it's screwed before it's even begun.

Best advice I can give to novice mixing peeps is turn your bloody monitors up from the start and calibrate them for different genres of music so you mix at the same level each time for that genre.

[davemc]

I always think Lost in Space and 60's Dr Who were great. Didn't worry it was a monster in tin foil :) he he
Although I like CGI movies as well. I prefer a story line and characters I can get a feel of. Even if its a cartoon.

For the last few years I had the studio, most bands just wanted loud. Or fake dynamics, sounds etc
Personally I always liked to record a band playing fully live and capture that magic moment. So I would get everything the best I could so I was ready when the magic happens.
A lot of young engineers I talk to only mention re-amping, adding samples, autotuning, beat detective.
I mean I know a lot of young engineers who do not care about mic setups of amps as they have a DI split. Or bother finding another snare drum to suit as I will just replace the drums

Although its not just engineers, its the bands as well. The more people got used to home recording where you just do take after take instead of practicing, the more they do this in a studio.
When I had my 2" before I closed, a lot of bands did not want to use it. As hard to cut and paste

[musikwerks]

One (sort of) bright light on the horizon is that pretty soon we'll all be able to TiVo those pesky ads out of existence. I'm already doing it now with the Foxtel iQ.

[heathen]

One (sort of) bright light on the horizon is that pretty soon we'll all be able to TiVo those pesky ads out of existence. I'm already doing it now with the Foxtel iQ.

Whats TiVo Kris, I'm sick, my brain hurts and I'm feeling too lazy to search. :)

[musikwerks]

Interactive hard disk based recorder with internet access and a bunch of other features. Channel 7 owns the rights to it in Australia but Foxtel has had a similar thing going on for quite a while with the iQ box. Pretty similar boxes.

[heathen]

Interactive hard disk based recorder with internet access and a bunch of other features. Channel 7 owns the rights to it in Australia but Foxtel has had a similar thing going on for quite a while with the iQ box. Pretty similar boxes.

Cheers.

[davemc]

As OZ Tivo is owned by 7, you cannot ad skip like the US version. you can fast forward pretty quick it also auto rewinds a little when you press stop which is good.. Although still fast forward, I have another PVR with 30 sec skip which you can overshoot easily. Then you skip back 30 and end up watching the last ad anyway.

[rob]

i've become a whiz on the FF button on our PVR, if I nail it, I can FF over ads at 6x and drop back into play right on the program resume. Best of all the sound is muted!