Pop Filters

[Dave Shore]

Hi Guys,

Just a random thought - do you think that a pop filter's design could completely handle the 'de essing' of a vocal recording?

As in, a Pop Filter works by lowering the annoying 'ess' sounds in the vocals, without affecting the remaining sounds.

So, if you used 3 pop filters instead of one, would that completely solve the 'de essing' issue?

I only ask because I encounter issues with my particular electronic de essing tool and, if I could solve de essing naturally/acoustically (without having to use an electronic tool) that would be good.

Has anyone ever played around with multiple (or extra thick) pop filters and their placement?

Or does the overall vocal track sound quality start to seriously degrade at a much faster rate than the de essing ability when using multiple/thicker pop filters?

Just wanted your opinion before I invested time/money into that train of thought...

Thanks!!
D.

[HA_DA_JA]

interesting question as the diaghargm (however you spell it), moves by air pressure on a mic. So if you limit the amount of air pressure I guess it will start to serious impact the sound. I guess just do the experiment yourself.

[jkhuri44]

good mic + Royer metal grill pop filter = no probs (most of the time)

usually poly stocking style filters muckaround with the hi end...so, 3 of em, will muckaround 3 times as much! :(

[Chinagraf]

I tend to move the vocalist around on the mic, like going more across the mic instead of singing straight into it etc can help. Changing mics helps too, but obviously this isn't an option for everyone.
In mixing I often have the top end or 'air' part of a lead vocal on a seperate track as in I don't eq the original vocal very bright, but I have a copy of that that is very bright mixed in under the original track. I use a passive eq for this as you are cranking the top a lot and it sounds smoother to me. You can de-ess the crap out of this 'topend track' and it's not as noticeable because it is sitting under the main vocal track and pretty much dissapears when the de-esser kicks in, leaving only the original 'not so bright' track to do the s's. Does that make sense?

[Dave Shore]

Yes(ssssssss) that makes sense :)

I'll buy one of them Royer Metal filters as well then.

Thanks,
D.

[Ben M]

Hi Dave

Here's a trick for recording a vocal with too much sibilance (assuming your using a large diaphragm microphone).
Place a pencil vertically on the front of the mic directly in the middle of the diaphragm and then stick it to the mic using tape. No need for de-essers using this technique. Let me know what you think.
cheers Ben

[Chris H]

Pop filters are designed to reduce plosives. A few respected engineers argue that the stocking style pop filter commercial or home made, actually makes the sibilance worse, and that the foam type that comes supplied with some neumann mics is a better option than the stocking over a frame.

Having one designed specifically for de essing......the problem i see here is that the frequencies such a filter would attenuate need to be in the vocal signal when not sssinging an ssss-word.

[DrAlienSmith]

I've tried the pencil technique a few times, I've found it does help a little but as with most techniques if the mic is bright and/or the singer is 'essy', there's always going to be a problem.

[musikwerks]

I would rather record a slightly 'essy' singer in all it's 'essy' glory than risk losing something forever because I blocked it on the way in.

You can always manipulate and treat it after it's recorded but if some of the magic gets filtered out before it even makes it into the converters, well....

[chris p]

Dave

What you want is an outboard de-esser from Orban - they come up quite often on the 'net. They use a pass-band filter in the "sss" frequency to trigger a fast compressor, so you still get the "sss" sound but at a lower volume (ie a volume that matches the rest of the program material). I have a two channel balanced in/out one that I love, for two reasons - the first is that it keeps the sound as "s" not "th", and the second is that its quite subtle - I tend to overdo my de-essing 'cause my ears get so attuned to the sound I'm trying to avoid. My Orban simply has a bypass switch and a volume reduction knob, so its as easy as pie to use and keeps it all real.

For magic de-essing, run the recording backwards through the Orban. The tail of the sibilance then becomes a slowly increasing trigger for the compression, so that its fully working by the time you hit the initial transient.

Anecdote time - I wish I knew the above when I recording a Christian songwriter a few years back - one line sounded like "JeSSSuSSS you SSSSeek and SSSave the LoSSSt", and I the best I could make it was "Jethuth you theek and thave the lotht". I ended up going with the original, with its sibilance, and if my memory serves I think Rick managed to tweak it when mastering.

[Chris H]

When all else fails, .....actually, mostly well before i have given other options a go, i automate the volume of the problem bits of the vocal in Logic while watching the waveform.
One pass of the vocal using the fader to pull down the level during the sibilant bits. Then tidy up the automation in the draw feature in the arrange page. It's a no brainer and works better than any plug in or outboard de - esser i know of.

Another thing worth mentioning is how compression can exaggerate the problem of sibilance.

[heathen]

Anecdote time - I wish I knew the above when I recording a Christian songwriter a few years back - one line sounded like "JeSSSuSSS you SSSSeek and SSSave the LoSSSt", and I the best I could make it was "Jethuth you theek and thave the lotht". I ended up going with the original, with its sibilance, and if my memory serves I think Rick managed to tweak it when mastering.

I bet there was a freaky message there if that was run backwards. :)

[TimS]

you crack me up Heath - classic...
it would be freaky!!

[rick]

i deny i ever helped jesus with his "ssses" in anyway :)

[chris p]

Lol

tthol eth vathe dna keeth ...

There's a script for Night of the Damned Part IX

[chris p]

Now Rick, don't be shy - you saved Jesus' SSSS that day.

Ahhh, the puns just keep on comin'

[heathen]

i deny i ever helped jesus with his "ssses" in anyway :)

Now only if you had been there 2009 years ago the world could be very different.

[TimS]

Where's Marty McFly when you need him...

[rick]

if i had of been around 2009 years ago i would have insisted they started the calender on its historical start date not some convenient near enough "wadda about here" date

and christmas would be spelled differently , my kids cannot say it yet without lisping on the ssses
by the time they figure it out i am sure christmas will have lost its appeal :)

[TimS]

if i had of been around 2009 years ago i would have insisted they started the calender on its historical start date not some convenient near enough "wadda about here" date

and christmas would be spelled differently , my kids cannot say it yet without lisping on the ssses
by the time they figure it out i am sure christmas will have lost its appeal :)

but isn't it cute to hear the kiddy chrissmass lisp?? ;-)
i know exactly what you're talking about Rick - I have the same at my place!

[Chinagraf]

[quote="rick"] my kids cannot say it yet without lisping on the ssses
[/quote]

Perhaps you are de-essing them a little too much?

[rick]

straight teeth are the best desser on the planet, it just takes a while for the little ones to grow into them:)

[Dave Shore]

Hi Ben,

Just quickly - yep, I did the pencil on the mic and yes it helps a lot.

Now I might try it with a Nikko pen or something larger...

D.

[Adam Dempsey]

fwiw, re plosives & dynamic mics: aim the mic at either corner of the vocalist's mouth.

Another thing worth mentioning is how compression can exaggerate the problem of sibilance.

Definitely.

[Senad]

When all else fails, .....actually, mostly well before i have given other options a go, i automate the volume of the problem bits of the vocal in Logic while watching the waveform.
One pass of the vocal using the fader to pull down the level during the sibilant bits. Then tidy up the automation in the draw feature in the arrange page. It's a no brainer and works better than any plug in or outboard de - esser i know of.

Yesss..Same here..apart from the fact that I go straight into "pencil" work without the fader pass..a bit less messy for me that way..

[Mark Bassett]

I also automate the 'sss' down within pro tools. I don't automate the volume on the vocal track itself though. I select and duplicate the 'sss' part of the region and copy it to a separate track, making sure the position the new 'sss' segments doesn't move (ie the copy is exactly above the original sss). The new track needs to be visually above the original track in the edit window. Assign them to the same voice. As they have the same voice, only the top track will play, which is the sss. Now you've got a dedicated ssss fader, just turn it down and you'll turn down the sss's. Automation is easier this way too.

[HA_DA_JA]

Yeh I saw Kenny Gioa do that and this really works well.