Confusion-Vintage equipment-Quality Music

[PeteB]

Just throwing something out there for comment.
This is an opinion I have had for a long time. And is being reinforced over time as I record better music with less equipment.
I feel as though many recordists confuse the vibe and quality of well known older recordings with the so called mojo of vintage equipment.
In fact the sonic integrity of many classic recordings are really poor (but the songs are very good).
I know it's easy for engineers to seek comfort behind a pile of gear and forget that it's actually the music and musicians that provide the fodder , not some fabled piece of gear that a famous artist once used (not that they knew it at the time).
I feel as though artists are actually hijacked by electronic bling these days.
What are your thoughts?

[The Tasmanian]

Think of it like this:
Use a beautifull old german camera and take a photo - then do the same thing with your iphone. Now one could say they both take clear pictures - and the iphone may be technically better upon analysis BUT - a professional experienced photographer most of the time will choose the photograph on the camera because it brings out qualities that digital seems too miss - Same reason people still shoot all the beautifull feature films on 35mm - Why? - Nothing to do with trying to impress people with their mojo.
Now we are all processing in the digital realm (photo's and music). I am 100% sure that when the photographer imports the iphone image and scans the developed photo into his computer, the subtle beauty of the camera image will take post processing (photoshop etc) better than the iphone image. This is exactly what we are doing - fussing about the chain previous to the recorder so we can get an image that is more malleable in post production (plug-ins/mix down consoles)

Great engineers and producers use class A equipment(usually vintage) because they are professionals and through many years of using modern and vintage gear they have learned through experience what sounds great and enhances the musicians work - brings forward the great qualities of the artist (especially with vocals)

We are like photographers who photograph sound - no way am i going to get rid of my vintage stuff cause I have the tools that are the best I know of through all of my experience of having tried shitloads of modern and old.
Just because you hear old recordings that may sound crap to your ears does not mean vintage gear sounds crap.
Things to consider - the mixes you suggest are crap may have been compromised by the mixdown tape machines.
Mastering AND mixing in those days that was all EQed for AM mono car radios,vinyl etc -so they wipe out the bottom end and the very highs so that the music can blurt out these crappy tiny 3 inch speakers in cars.
Now back to the gear - I have old mic pre's/eq's that I would never swap for an Avalon mic pre - the Avalon may technically have better spec's but in my experience I demand a hell of a lot more that good spec's from gear.
I also have brand spanking new gear that gets used too -
I use nothing ever because its vintage - that would be the last thing I would think of when setting up to record a vocalist.
I think about the qualities of the voice, what am I trying to bring forward, how do I envisage it to be in the final mix - THEN I think of what mic pre /EQ /compressors I NEED to use so that I can capture a special sound that heads towards what I need in the mix.
And usually - the vintage gear brings forward these qualities I need to do my work - just like the photographer.
The same reason why great guitar amps are still built using valves and huge transformers - are all these guitarists fools that should swap to a technically cleaner solid state amp with no transformers - full of chips?
And finally - the singer/artist hears what you do as an engineer - and sings/performs to the sound in the headphones - so what you do very much affects the performance of the vocalist - and therefor you affect the emotional performance of the artist - so you/your choice of equipment/the chain etc has a direct impact on what the final result is.
It may be foolish to think gear has nothing to do with a performance of a artist - or the emotional qualities of a vocalist - or the interpretation by the punters listening to the work.

[The Tasmanian]

Also - about 6 months ago there was a big album at BJB with a well known US producer.
They had been tracking all the live stuff with guide vocals for 2 weeks.
The producer noticed my Electrodyne Pre's (1969) and asked if he could use them.
He first put them on the guide vocalist and the singer flipped at how great his voice sounded - he said he had never heard is voice sound so great and ripped into the guide vocal tracks with confidence and gusto.
They used these vocals in the final mix that were done as guides - the vibe of the performances were never acheived again with other pre's/chains.
We work with emotions - not ones and zero's.

[walding]

The golden rules of recording (at least for me) in order of importance;

1 The players

2 the Room

3 The mic

4 all else.

I always say to people about gear, give Lennon a 57 and a crappy zoom digital recorder and he will produce excellent results before someone in the best studio $$$ can buy who doesn't have lennons talent.

[openplanrecording]

All valid points guys and I guess thats why so much time and effort go's into Analog emulation in the form of plugins
as different types of transient aware and frequency dependant saturations have an impact on our emotional responce to sound
has anyone tried the Tessla pro and or Ferric tds? not to say that they completely replace the gear, but these are among the best anolog emulators
around I.M.H.O and best of all there compleatly free
You can D/L them at the link below

The golden rules of recording (at least for me) in order of importance;

1 The players

2 the Room

3 The mic

4 all else.

I agree Absolutely with you with music where microphones are involved!

http://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/

[rick]

the most important thing for me is i FEEL like i know what i am doing
then i can control the rest of the session and make sure everybody else involved has a fair chance of contributing something special.

lots of old classic old gear is simple and the parameters are limited , if you need to go outside those parameters to make something sound great
ether you are a genius or a novice - i am pretty sure i am neither.

but as for the idea that we are getting invited on a stupid train ride with all the new must have gear
of course we are ...
so..?

[Linear]

Hmm, does the quality of the gear matter?? Hell yes!!

For me personally, it just makes it easier to get a better recording with less effort. This means that more time can be spent getting the 'vibe' right and less time fcuking around trying to make things sound good. Professional (vintage) equipment to me was also not designed with marketing or price points in mind - it was designed to do a job up to a certain (often high) standard. I'm sure Rob will agree with me there, alot of newer gear wasn't designed to be serviced or repaired, it's designed to look good in a shop and/or win shootouts (read: be bright and loud). Contrast this with truly professional equipment that on first listen doesn't necessarily sound that amazing, but comes home to roost come mix time.

Cheap or bad recording equipment has a small sweet spot, good gear has a large sweet spot. Good gear makes you look like a great engineer, shite gear just forces you to make up excuses.

Yes the players and song are the most important thing - but largely, that is out of your control. You can't make someone (who is paying you to make their record) magically get better in an instant.

All you're trying to do is make whoever has just come in sound as good as they can possibly be. Yes the gear may be a small percentage of the overall, but it's the one bit that you can control.

Chris

[stosostu]

You can't make someone (who is paying you to make their record) magically get better in an instant.

Ah, but you can if you have a Talent Booster Pedal........................

[walding]

Cheap or bad recording equipment has a small sweet spot, good gear has a large sweet spot.
Chris

BIngo.

[rob]

One of my regular clients and a successful studio operator last week requested that I build him a "talent enhancer". I'm seriously looking into it . . . .

[Linear]

cigarette = 'tone stick'

doobie = 'talent stick'

cigar = 'bill stick'

[PeteB]

I'm understanding the comments re the great sound some vintage equipment can impart on a recording.
My point is that there is confusion about the importance of vintage equipment these days because of earlier results (you know all those great tunes that are imprinted on our subconscious), including a great song, great artist, arranger, producer, musicians and acoustic space. It seems to me that the cart is put before the horse these days and the equipment can be seen as the main tool for passable results.
I know we're gear heads by nature but we need to realise the value of the music in all this.

[ChrisW]

I actually think old records sound amazing.
I've also been lucky enough to work with vintage gear and it sounds amazing too, for me preferable to much modern stuff.
I've recorded my drums through EMI TGI consoles, a Cadac and a Helios and they all impart something different (and very nice).
I worked with a guy back in the 80's when everyone was using SSL. He rented in a whole pile of Pultecs and my drums sounded massive. They still sound great listening back to that album now.
Nothing replaces good musicians and great songs. But if you add in some vintage pieces, the right piece for the job, you can make a better recording IMHO.
Yes, most of the public don't care, and all the modern gear is quite amazing really, especially for the money.
But I don't think we should discount how great some vintage gear truly is.

[Chinagraf]

I agree with Pete's point about the quality of playing being something that is overlooked by some in the equation, mainly because although there are a lot of great players out there the percentage of great players compared to the overall total sum of players has gone wayyyy down, and I point the finger firmly at non linear recording. I was fortunate enough to work across the divide from the days of tape only, or at least only simple 2 track digital into full blown digitalis that we have now. Union rates are often based on 3 hours calls, which is ironic because it's hard to get some 'musos' to play longer than 3 minutes. "You can just paste that bit in can't ya?"...No, no I can't. Play that f*&^in thing hangin round ya neck will ya, it's not just there for looks. It's ironic, because we are now in a time where it is the cheapest to record it's ever been, and you can record for hours till you get it right, but the cut and paste generation is here.
I am pretty fortunate to not have to deal with this too much, most of the people I work with are full time and work hard. Our studio manager's daughter summed it up in a facebook post a few weeks ago. "Control C, Control V, Control S..homework done."
I do love the odd bit of vintage kit though. The valves keep me warm while I'm doin all that cuttin and pastin.

[jkhuri44]

who listens to bands these days anyway?

[rick]

i got a really cool looking shortwave radio in a boxful of stuff at an abc auction a few months back
i gave it to my kid to put in his rocketship / old cardboard fridge box as a control board
he keeps zipping through the bands finding chinese radio news or radio deuchabella

i told him they were the aliens from out of space talking to him and that his rocketship had lots knobs because it had of radio bands to choose from

he told my mum that he listens to alien rock bands in his rocket ship

my mum says be careful what you tell your children

[jkhuri44]

wondering when you're going to start writing a parenting column rick?

[rob]

when I was about eight years old I had a shortwave radio in my bedroom and every night I'd go to bed and listen to alien broadcasts. I was convinced that these wierd sounds and foreign voices came from outer space.
Life was simple then ....

[rick]

wondering when you're going to start writing a parenting column rick?

i thought i was already

[dafyd]

I sold my last studio in the mid 80's because I thought the technology world was moving too fast for me!
Artists were starting to come in unprepared and expected to fix it in the mix, boring.
Sort out the shit in pre production and record really fast, Frank Sinatra had it sussed one take and out of there.
On the other hand I love the run throughs and session players to have not heard a song before recording, reacting to the storytelling
instead of trampling all over it.
A book on Van Morrison 'Can you feel the silence' by Clinton Heylin is a good read on mining the feel, Daniel Lanois new book is also good.
I hope I haven't gone too off topic, I love and use great gear because I am lazy and get bored easily and it sometimes makes me look like
I know what I'm doing.
By the way how often do you get invited out for a meal to discuss a future project?
Performance is god.

dafyd Williams
www.psychosonic.com.au