guitar recording/cabling

[jkhuri44]

gday guys,

i just wanted to fly my plans for recording guitars to you guys before i go in and do so....just to see if i can pick up any cool tips :P

ill be recording a mesa boogie dual recto by setting up the head in the control room, and running the amp's output through the walls (patching) using speaker cable offcourse...

that is all running through to the recording floor (dead room).

The guitar will be connected firstly to a VHT Tube power buffer (all connections are with Mogami leads)....which should clean things up and get rid of hum and replenish any high and low signal loss.

The main question is, will i need any sort of buffering to keep the signal hot running from the amp's output and through the walls? (think about 10 meters distance). I've got the input buffering sorted, but the output is worrying me a bit....should i stop worrying or is there something to help?

Thanks,

Jamil.

[Simon B]

I am sure alot of people would disagree with what I have to say

I like the sound of mesa's......... but not recorded...... I think it has something to do with the scooped mid range giving it mesa crunch which sounds good on its own..... but doesnt sit well in the mix with me

I would look at other amp options where you are recording and see if you have access to their amps as well and not be opposed to them, I suggest finding the best tones available with whats available. not just using your amp because you want to be able to produce it live. Just to give an example Metalica have a mesa endoresment, but if you look at some kind of monster doco they used alot more amps brands then just mesa to find the sounds for the song...... the majority of fans cant tell the difference and think it is mesa's

Why do you want the head in the control room? Couldnt you find the sound you want from the head and then leave it in the recording space and then patch your guitar through the wall from the control room to the head? then you wouldnt really need the buffer........ Maybe use the way you have always done it when playing live and in practice and only change if the engineer wants you to.

My favourite guitar recording techniques involve a ribbon mic through a colourful mic pre or a dynamic mic through a transparent type of pre.

I guess it really comes down to where you are recording, how much time you have in the recording, and who is at he helm of the recording process.....

By the sounds of it its your first time recording and you want the best guitar sounds possible which every musician does for their instrument. just remeber a guitar is a mid range instrument and sounds bigger and better when their is less bass from the guitar and more midrange and not the rock n roll smile of scooped mids and extended highs and lows..... thats why there is a bass player in the band

[jkhuri44]

we're using a mesa coz we like the sound of it...

i will be recording and mixing myself, im the keyboardist in the band.

the head is in the control room because we dont really want to die of hearing damage :P mesa's sound a lot nicer when they are pushed hard, we're taking out the 2 middle tubes to make it somewhat a 50 watter...and push it even harder....also the guitarist finds it alot easier to track with his guitar sounding relatively similar to the mixed level. Also head in the control room because we do lot of overdubbing and change gain settings for different parts and its a lot easier doing that with the head sitting right next to us.

as for "better amps"...i have been pretty hard pressed finding anything as good as a mesa....marshall's brand new ok but not very versatile, and ive found that the people that rave about them have originals hot rodded to the max, or play through bundles of pedals....

if we lived in america i would record through a Soldano, or a VHT,or maybe a Bogner.....


we dont live in america...and i would want to try them out before i bought one as well...

i am recording at uni using a dual mic combo, a 421 one on speaker, a bit further back than usual, and a condenser a bit further back, i would love to try a ribbon, but we dont have them at uni, mics will be going into a Drawmer Merc edition 1969, with a touch of compression...

[scott]

Jamil your aproach sounds fine,
only thing I would say is be real carefull about phase and you dont always need two mics. Having both your condenser and your dynamic in an xy configeration is usually a safe option although you may run out of headroom on the condenser.

How big is the recording room? You really do want to crank that sucker which usually means the rooms sound is more likely to come on to play.

Oh and personally, I cant see any point in compressing an amp thats flat out.

[rob]

it seemed to me your real question was a technical one about connecting the amp head to the cabinet through the walls over 10 metres or so.

A 10 metre speaker cable is no big deal if you use a heavy gauge wire. I'd go for something quite a bit thicker than your standard figure 8 lamp cable.

You mention "patching", what do you mean? Is this through an existing patch system or has a dedicated patching system been put in for speaker level signals ( this would imply that the wiring between the rooms is present already )

So, it hard to answer your question fully.

Put it this way...don't run your amp speaker signals down microphone cable!

Rob

[smash]

"Why do you want the head in the control room? Couldnt you find the sound you want from the head and then leave it in the recording space and then patch your guitar through the wall from the control room to the head? then you wouldnt really need the buffer"

Have to mention that I disagree with the above statement.
Not intending to start a flame war, or cause any offence, but the point of recording with the head in the control room, is exactly the same reason that many recordings are made with the pre's remotely located in the live room... because a high power low impedance signal is much much less succeptable to long distance cable runs than a high impedance low power signal.

Basically the longer the guitar cable, the duller the sound, and the higher the chance of hum and noise.

Speaker cabling is carrying a signal so much higher in power it is comparitivly unaffected by cable run length, at least in the distances described here.

Oh, and compressing an amp that's already flat out will have the added effect of increasing the apparent volume of your lower noise floor tones, so if you have a quiet amp in an acoustically beautifull room this can be a huge bonus, if you have a slightly noisy amp in a dull, or oddly resonant room, it can suck.

[jkhuri44]

Put it this way...don't run your amp speaker signals down microphone cable!

Thats precisely what i was wondering....

the patching at our uni, is pretty much a bunch of plates on the bottom of all the walls in each room, each plate has Mic XLR, Line, and DI connections....

after i have set up the amp head in the control room, with the VHT buffer and any pedals....i want to patch the amp's output into the DI input...

I connect the amps output into the DI connections in the control room, which is wired to the computer control room and patch bay, then i patch in there are well from room to room, then finally in the control room i run the long speaker cable from the DI output into the guitar cab (phew!)

Basically i should have been a bit more careful about my wording...

will there be an impedance problem patching the amplified signal of the amp's output using speaker cable into a DI input??


(PS. which cabling should i ask for when i order Mogami stuff online? for speaker cable that is).

[rob]

ok, so you are going to use the existing wall plates with the sockets on them marked "DI" to send your speaker level signal from the amp head in one room to the cabinet in another.
Besides needing to make up a speaker lead or two to get from the head to the control room wall plate and then another lead to get from the studio room wall plate to the cabinet; you are relying on whatever cable is used to wire the sockets on the two wall plates together.

Since they are labelled DI, it is safe to assume that they are wired with shielded cable possibly of a pretty light gauge.

This is not suitable for speaker level signal.

Your problem is the existing cable in the wall not what you need to make up to use them.

In an ideal world you have speaker grade wiring between the rooms with suitable connectors at either end.

However, this doesn't mean it won't work, the possibilities are :

it will be fine and you won't notice any problems
it will kind of work but the signal will loose a bit of level on it's journey
the amp will blow up
the wiring in the wall will melt down, catch fire and destroy the studio

bearing all this in mind

"suck it and see"

R

[jkhuri44]

lol!

yeh, studio on fire...that would be dodgy.

i will stick to recording the amp the usual way then! pain in the ass, but hey

[davemc]

Get a long heavy duty speaker lead.. under the door and off you go. Did that a lot of the time. Had two at the studio. As Rob says you should not patch through the wall. The old setup I had I run actually speaker patch points through to iso rooms.
I used to always get guys come in with guitar leads as speaker leads. grr

[jkhuri44]

yeh, after rob posted, i thought twice about the whole patching thing..under the door it is :P

what cable do you recommend, i was thinking of buying some mogami leads, and speaker cable, and stomp box connectors...

is there anything better out there?? with stellar shielding and what not??

[davemc]

I just brought some already made speaker leads :)

Regarding Mesa's(I personally like them) the one thing I always found with recording mesa's was that watch the sound going down to make sure it fits in the mix.Otherwise your going to have to EQ a lot. Watch the mid range or sometimes lack of it. Same with a lot of amps they have good and bad points. What speaker box, some like and do not like mesas as well.
I went back to single micing amps for a while now unless I am only going to have one pass of amp sound then I will do to different mics and watch the phase. Although I know people who use 3-4 mics on a single cab everyone is different,

[jkhuri44]

will be recording with a dynamic and a condensor....

cab is a beat up Marshall 1960A which i scooped up from Smithys ....

looks dead, but it barks like a monster!!! hahaha dunno why, but it sounds 10,000 times better than new 1960s in music shops....

ive heard that older marshall cabs have original celestions....but i cant tell if mine's old enough to have originals inside

[davemc]

Not sure on the speakers. Although the newer Marshall cabs are not made from the same wood. Pretty light now.

[jkhuri44]

touche!

that would make sense :)

[Kris]

I just spent the weekend tracking guitars through one of Nick's Germanium pre's. I have to say it was pretty damn cool. It just sounded like a great guitar sound immediately with a 57 on my single 12 cab.

[jkhuri44]

yes!

im waiting patiently for the start of the next year, i think ill be hiring Nick's whole shabang for a weekend drum session...

cant wait!

[anj]

Ive heard the cheapest best cable you can use for speaker cable is electical cable( nice thickcopper cable) they use to wire up houses..........Ive been meaning to do it myself but havnt got around to it.

Its very important to make sure your mics are in phase.....I usualy mic 2 seperate speakers and start with the mics at the same distance away from the speakers, then i tweak until i get them right ( always reverse the phase on one of the preamps and if there is almost no sound when the mics are combined you know youv got it right, 6then put the mics back in phase and press record)...and use the pad on the condenser.

As far as mics go i prefer a 57 than a 421 on guitars ( but thats me) and since the mesas have a scooped midrange i think maybe the 57 would work better....so it would pay to have one around to try out.
If the condenser isnt working out ( cant handle the spl) try 2 dynamics on the cab................it pays to experiment until you get the sound your after.

I use anything (and any combination) from dynamic, ribbon and condensers on guiter cabs.

Also..............I find close micing heavy distorted guitars works best.

Anj.

[jkhuri44]

Thanks for the tips anj,

with guitars, i find it really hard to tell what i like...

it seems last time i recorded with a telefunken 421 and an AKG 414 (older model)...

i really seemed to get a sweet sound...the 414 cops bass really nicely since its a pretty big diaphram...and the 421 is really bright, full of bite and kicks total ass...

im dying to try a Coles on a guitar cab, but uni doesnt have one, and im not sure anyones got one up for rental! Im sure it would be a welcome replacement to the 414

[anj]

Just a word of caution........as you said the 421 and 414 give you nice tops and bottoms.
but guitar is a midrange instrument and that is where it sits in the mix ie. can sound louder and bigger without too much volume, which makes your recording sound bigger.

thats why I like 57s....................with either a aea ribbon or a neumann u87.