A Question for Ron Sexsmith fans

[wez]

A client of mine is a huge Ron Sexsmith fan, and he recently gave me some stuff so I could hear what he was on about.

I'm listening to his last record "Long Player Late Bloomer", which was produced by Bob Rock and was supposed to be his big tilt at crossing over into mainstream popularity.

I always cringe a little bit when I hear even subtle use of autotune, but this record is off the scale to the point of being unlistenable for me. I've heard some shockers (and i'm not talking about deliberate use as an effect), but this is one of the worst, most inappropriate (mis)uses of autotune that i've ever heard.

my question is - how do Ron Sexsmith fans feel about this record? Having not yet listened to his earlier work, is this something that has happened before? I totally understand the insecurities, I get that he is not a 'singer', rather a songwriter - but so is Nick Cave. So is Tom Waits. I'm also watching the accompanying doco "Love Shines" and the scene where he is singing a new song to Bob Rock really throws it in to sharp relief - it's beautiful, fragile, imperfect, and heartfelt. And yes it's pitchy and a little rough - but you just know that he can pull off a better performance in the studio, and not need to f@#$ it up with such heavy handed and indiscriminate tuning.

which brings me to another peeve... I'm no Bob Rock, I mean I think I know what I'm doing but I would never claim to be a 'world class' engineer... but for f@#$'s sake it's NOT THAT HARD to use autotune in such a way as to make it almost transparent, and not distract from the performance. I use it more than I care to admit but I take the time and effort to do it with care and subtlety. It's not that hard.

Rant over (for now).

[SteveL]

I'm a big Ron Sexsmith fan, but of the earlier stuff (ie first couple of albums) rather than the later stuff. What drew me to him initially was the almost off-key quaver in his voice, which has been totally ironed out in latter produictions via over-production/auto-tune etc. Favourite album is still his debut "Ron Sexsmith" released '95. The production was much simpler then.

He's a brilliant songwriter, saw him a couple of times at The Basement. Fragile, as you say, is just the right way to describe his voice. I have all his albums including the latter ones, but they rarely get played in preference for the earlier material, though there are songwriting gems everywhere through his discography - it's the later over-production of his material that has put me off a bit.... but as a songwriter, I appreciate his craft greatly across all his albums.

[chribble]

wow I never noticed. I have the retriever record and I could never pick it up.... will check it out, i never thought he was off key

[Wiz]

I have never heard of him.


Is this the song you mean

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_tMht9hlSM


that sounds pretty good to me.

I am no fan of auto tune, when I can hear it. I dont hear it on this...I like this.

It sounds.... real to me.

His delivery ... reminds me of Rufus Wainwright.

[wez]

I'm referring purely to the latest, Bob Rock-produced album ("Long Player Late Bloomer") - I'm not familiar with his earlier work, other than a couple of older songs featured in the doco.

speaking of which, i've just finished watching it... and there are numerous examples of him performing live, and for the most part they sound really sweet - and certainly MUCH better than the recorded versions. He is unquestionably a great songwriter, and I'm tempted to investigate his earlier records... but I can't stomach the sonics of this latest one.

Sometimes, the song transcends the technology... but the technology also has the power to kill the song - or at least become a significant obstacle to it's delivery.

[walding]

I don't know of the artist but I know of bob rock, sadly very sadly.

[jasound]

That would be like mixing oil and water, that would be like mixing Lou Reed with Metallica .... loulicca to put it another way.

[Ben M]

I've been a fan of Ron's since the mid 90's. I'd like to echo everything Steve said. I saw the Basement gig as well and it was a great showcase of his raw talent.
His self titled release is a fine record and one that still gets played around the house.
When artists like RS start layering and over producing their releases they generally stumble upon the autotune button and give it a try... then they get addicted to it... like tune junkies. Losing sight of the overall sound of the vox.
His earlier releases have a slight natural flatness to his voice which suits those songs - kinda lazy feel and not perfect sounding. I liked that!

I find his choice of producer for his latest release baffling

[chribble]

hang on. is bob rock the guy who autotuned buble? the person who least needed autotune ?

[rick]

ok well I haven't heard said record .. But bob rock ..?
Well on every level he is about a good a producer as have ever been ..
To assume him to be mettallica or any other band is a disservice to the role of producer ..

I dont like metallica .. Or lots of bands he has done ..
I really like ron sexmith ..

and in regard to bob rock i did watch the metallica making of video ..
bob rock gets my vote 100% he IS the consumate producer .. he clearly understands and knows excatly what he is doing and why

what ever is going on with sexsmith there will be a reason .. good or bad
but it wont be anything careless

is it inappropriate ..?
dunno .. but i guess that is the question .. innit ?

[Paul Maybury]

Hi Rick, you are right, that is ALWAYS the question. However, commercial imperatives can cause this to be lost sight of.
Cheers,
Paul Maybury

[rob]

I haven't heard this record either but do have a broad comment about singers and pitch. I totally respect and admire a singer with great pitch as someone who can't hold a tune to save himself I think it is an awesome talent. Alongside this however, some of my favorite vocalists are really quite bad at pitch and it seems to me that pitch really ain't as important as delivery, intent, articulation and passion. If I was a bobrocking producer this is what would seem to be important to facilitate, not tuning.

[rick]

Fortunately for rickrock producer , I am not
Afflicted with perfect pitch so unless the note
Is a car crash I don't give a shit about tuning
( vocals.. That is )
I find it amusing listening to badly compromised
Auto tuned vocals .. All I hear is the unnatural
Artifacts not the fact they are in tune now

One must assume that auto tune does actually
Work and it is transparent and we never hear it or
Complain .. One must assume .. But I better listen
To this record ..
I am doing a reissue from 1981 today
One must also assume somebody thought the drum machine
Sounded good at some point in history
It doesn't ...it sounds aweful
..
History ... fashion ...and all that

[Paul Maybury]

I'm with you on this one Rob!

[ChrisW]

Yep. some... nay many of the greatest singers in rock/pop/soul/jazz have sung in the cracks.
I don't get autotune, but then I don't get The Voice either.

[Linear]

I'm a big ron sexsmith fan (i've been lucky enough to meet him - he's very humble).

I think he is personally dogged by the fact that he's yet to achieve mainstream success. ridiculous when you consider a) how great a songwriter he is and b) that some of the most successful recording artists are big fans of his.

Alot of people don't like his voice, and he knows this. It has been described as being like 'kermit the frog' and even in his recordings is slightly off pitch. Personally, I love this but it isn't to everyone's taste.

SO he decides he's had enough of appealing to the fringe and wants a shot at a broader, bigger audience.

cue bob rock & autotune.

so you'll get a bunch of the fringe guys (who like his earlier, less commercially successful records) whining about how he's selling out etc. he's obviously trying to sell records to the masses who don't care so much about how autotune sounds etc.

kudos to him I reckon.

Chris

[The Tasmanian]

Yeah I couldn't agree more.
Its music at the end of the day - no need for nostalgia.
I think we should embrace it (even more so when we cringe)

Many great artists struggle immensely with vocals - physically and psychologically - big time. They feel they cant ever get the sound that is inside their head, and are extremely insecure about the sound of their voices and what it can or can not do. How it ends up sounding on a record.

Unfortunately (fortunately) us in the industry can instantly recognize the sound of AT processing - 99% of punters dont care - or cant hear it as a tuning device. To them its a cool effect .
I do understand that its a big loss to the people that loved the honesty of his original voice -
Some artists are constantly a bit pitchy (which like a lot of you guys - I really like too) but it can drive an artist nuts as a basis for a whole career - album after album, the struggle, the worry as they lead up to recording... never getting the sound they want or imagine.
And the more albums they do, the more pressure to evolve as they reflect on their perceived short comings of the past.
The creative torture writing an album and having in the back of the head you are going to struggle again to get the voice to sound good enough for your own standard/vision, and they find again they are not satisfied with the sound of their voice on yet another album. Let alone the performance/vibe, connection to the spirit of the song.
There is so much psychology involved with the subject that we dont normally consider.

On the other hand I've worked with a few singers that can sing like mutherfukers - note pefect all of the time - and at times they really want to use autotune as an effect.
They REALLY like the sound of it - to most of these guys its like a voice synthesizer - as a byproduct of tuning, and adjusting parameters to find the right "effect" - subtle or huge.
Many big artists have been using it as an effect for a long time now - the punters love it.

Only a tiny percentage of the planet will ever recognize it as auto tune.
Unfortunately it is us - and we are trained to hear it (autotune sniffer dogs)

its embedded now - in so many cultures all over the world - no turning back.
Let the guy do his thing - he's an artist.

[rob]

nice points from the two Chris'

[ChrisW]

I think it is reasonable on an audio forum to question the use of software to perfect something.
It's similar to the debate around photoshopping models to have no flaws whatsoever. Already skinny girls have 'fat' trimmed from their waist and legs by software.
I agree though, the audience neither knows or cares about autotune.
Sidenote: Went to see Fleetwood Mac live a couple of years ago and Stevie Nicks vocals always had a chorus sound too them, which I took to be live autuotune.
Not good.

[wez]

Great points and opinions all round.

I've since had a look around at some of the RS fan sites, and there is plenty of chatter about the vocal treatment on that album - so sure, a large number of fans don't know or care, but plenty do. actually you know what, I think that even if you're not an audio guy, and you don't know what you're hearing, the autotuned sound will have some effect on your emotional connection with the song and the artist.

Oh and I've also heard a track from the new album coming out next year... sounds like someone (hopefully Ron!) has made the decision to return to a more natural sound. It's fantastically pitchy in parts (although I am sure little bits have been tuned, but there's been no attempt to fix every note, thus it is much less noticeable - exactly as it should be in this case).

But really, I'm not looking to start another 'autotune is evil' thread. use it, don't use it, whatever - we all do at some point. what I am saying is simply this...... 1) Ron's voice sounds a hell of a lot better without it, and 2) if you must use it for TUNING purposes (as opposed to using it as an effect), then it can be done in such a way as to not have a detrimental effect on the tone if you care enough to take the time to get it right.

EDIT... just read that the new album was produced by Mitchell Froom, who did the first three RS records. seems like a good combo

[Paul Maybury]

All of the above points are right on the money, but I think there is something else at work here. It's the way pop culture swings from art to artifice and back again. New and breakthrough styles and artists often first appear in a raw form, and stand out in relief against the prevailing manufactured products. ( Which I have nothing against, I like a carefully sculpted record).
This can happen within the span of an artists career. Perhaps Ron Sexsmith will make a stripped down, back to your roots record next time. And maybe THAT could be the breakthrough.
As for autotuning, I don't use it on vocals much, maybe a little on BV's, but it can be really handy on bass. That's using to tighten something transparently( hopefully).
On the other hand, I like the way it has now become just a tool in the fx toolkit for pop productions. It's interesting that autotuning itself has moved from artifice to art.
Cheers,
Paul Maybury

[ChrisW]

I don't think I could agree autotuning has become art.
The only time it's had artistic use is in some RnB, or the awful Cher record.

Before autotune....
I worked with quite a few alternative rock singers who were 'pitchy'. It was often a combination of nerves and 'bad' technique. (Sorry for all the quotation marks, but many of these comments are highly subjective).
Anyway.... pressure was often brought to bear on these singers to seek help from a vocal tutor. many didn't, and i worked with one guy who firmly believed if he was taught a better vocal technique, his vocal mojo would be destroyed in the process.
With all these perfection techniques it's hard to separate the chicken from the egg.
I've had the twin tussle over drum sample replacement and retiming over the years. Classic records many in the industry all agree on, are invariably dodgy in the timing department, and less than perfect drum sound-wise. And does anyone in the industry or the listening public care? Hard to say.
I scratched my head when I shared a studio complex with Tears For Fears in the 80's. One day they had one of the greatest studio drummers come in and play on a song. The rest of the week they spent editing and retiming his performance with a computer. When the album came out, I don't think it was one of their best sellers.

[Paul Maybury]

Hi , that's kind of what I meant by "art". Those way over effected rnb tracks. They take a "fix it" tool and make it a feature. That's pretty cool.
All the way back to Sun Records and well before,(Sun just being a good example of turning a limitation into a selling point), recordists and artists have sought ways to enhance a performance.
Editing, brandy, reefer, slap back, the bathroom, double tracking, ADT, harmonies, harmonizers, autotune, vocal coaches, distortion, perspective, verbal abuse, encouragement, ego massage.
whatever you've got.
Personally I like a direct, emotive performance over any artifice, but just putting a musician in a studio with headphones on is a synthetic situation. From there we have to help them build a connection to the listener and the music.
Fun stuff indeed!

[Phoenix]

I've had the pleasure of being in the studio for the mixing of two of Ron's best records IMHO (Cobblestone Runway and Retriever) both produced by my one time mentors Martin Terefe and Michael Brauer. Thankfully no autotune was used as both producer and mixer had the good prescience and taste not to use it. They understood that it wasn't in Ron's best interest. He is not and will never be a 'pop' artist. He is an incredible song writer with a voice that serves his particular style as in the masters of old Dylan, Mitchell etc..... and one could say not for the masses of today. There was a lesson in that for me. Understand your artist and serve them. Don't tune just because you can. More often than not you'll take that magic away.

[wez]

I've had the pleasure of being in the studio for the mixing of two of Ron's best records IMHO (Cobblestone Runway and Retriever) both produced by my one time mentors Martin Terefe and Michael Brauer. Thankfully no autotune was used as both producer and mixer had the good prescience and taste not to use it. They understood that it wasn't in Ron's best interest. He is not and will never be a 'pop' artist. He is an incredible song writer with a voice that serves his particular style as in the masters of old Dylan, Mitchell etc..... and one could say not for the masses of today. There was a lesson in that for me. Understand your artist and serve them. Don't tune just because you can. More often than not you'll take that magic away.

And there it is I reckon... thanks for chiming in Nathaniel.

Oh, and I like Michael Brauer a lot... I've kinda modelled my mixing approach on his, for better or worse!

[Phoenix]

Hey Wez, thanks man. I've just opened up a studio in Alexandria, Sydney. If you're around one day PM me and come visit. We can can talk 'Brauerize'

[Chris H]

Great thread!
....................just saying.