Violin, cello and bass pick ups

[Guest]

Hi All,

I'm putting together a system to tour that has a need for multipul string players to be wireless so they can move around the venues during the show. I have little experience with acoustic string pick-ups, and am trying to find out about others experences, good and bad, with differnet ones. Any advice would be a great help.

Thanks Tony

[Barney Loveland]

I personally use the david gage realist pu for double bass, with a suitable pre that has very high input impedance, about 10meg ohm is good. I hear they make pu's for cello etc too. AMT mics have good reputation too (Applied Mic Technologies), see them alot on live DVDs. They are a bit pricey am yet to try them.

[Neurosound]

What's your string section consist of?

A really top class miking solution I've used in the theatre is:

Schoeps CCM 4V lg with the violin/viola adaptors (VA1/VA2) running into a Sennheiser SKP 500 G2. The sennie transmitter will provide 48v for the mic. Pop the transmitter into the pocket of the player and your set to go. You could look at different mounting options for bigger instruments (celli and bassi) under the bridge with careful use of rubberbands and the hide the transmitter at the back of the instrument.

The DPA instrument mount kits for the miniature series could also be and option. To go cardiod, you'd need to unmount the capsule from the headbeand if you use the 4088. Omni choice would be the 4060.

Cheers,

John

[Guest]

Thanks guys that a great start.

John the line up will vary slightly from gig to gig but will have around 10 violins, 5 violas, 3 cellos and 1 bass.

Also John did you come across many problems using mics rather than pick ups, as far as tunning went. The string players will be on in ears mainly but there will be side fill for the whole stage. The tour has some very tight, like fly in at 11 show at 7, sort of turn arounds, and I’m trying to minimise possible problems without comprising the sound (to much).

[tall_phill]

The DPA 4060 & 4061 are the best sounding solution to close mic'd stringed instruments I have found. But bear it mind it is never going to sound quite right simply by virtue of microphone distance/location.

Unless you are really strapped for GbF headroom the DPA omni lapel mics will sound much better than the equivalent cardoids. DPA have just released a cardoid lapel mic, the 4080 so there should be no need to try something kinky with the 4088 removed from its headband.

I would encourage you to preference the Sennheiser radio mic systems over the Shure systems in the lower price brackets (The Shure UHF-R is very good though).

One caveat though, try and avoid using the Sennheiser SK-50 transmitter (if you are looking at a high end radio system). The DPA mics have such a high output it is very easy to drive the transmitters into limiting even on the minimum gain (the newer transmitters SK5212 have a wider input gain range, and this shouldn't be an issue). I have also had many issues with the battery packs on the SK-50 (making noises when squeezed/pressed).

Make sure you have a good frequency coordination plan for each venue.

Hope that helps,

Phillip

[Guest]

The DPA's look like a nice option, I've used them for drama shows before on the actors, never on a string section.

I'm setup a meeting with the head string player and trying to find out what some of them are already using but from what I can tell no two players have the same thing and the idea of touring fifteen different types of pickups seems very boring.

As it happens I have some of the shure UHF-R's coming into to the job I'm at today, fresh out of the box, so I'll get to set them up and have a play this afternoon. Then again, Muse is playing over the road from us tonight, so maybe I should wait until their done. Don't think they be real pleased if we happened to break into the show :-)

[tall_phill]

Since you'll be opening a new UHF-R system, here is a handy bit of information:

The transmitters are all capable of switching between 10mW & 50mW ouput power. But from the factory they come with a password to stop you selecting 50mW power. This password protection and the correct password are not documented in the manual.

The password is 'HIPWR'.

Of the many places I have hired these from, only one hire company has even known that such a password lock existed.

Oh, and I think the real fight will be making the string players comfortable on in ears, not getting a good sound from the instruments - Unless they are used to doing this sort of thing already.

Please make my day and spoil the Muse concert.

[Kris]

I second the opinion of the Sennheiser units. Basically, they suck if you need volume.

Stick with the high end Sennheiser or Shures. I use 10 UHF-R's every week. Never a problem. Computer software monitors all RF signals at all times. You'll soon see if you have a problem. I would also look into a scanner, especially if you're moving around the place.

As for switching the high power mode.... be careful. There are laws about that stuff. Better check the legalities first.

[Neurosound]

On the mic front, it's a matter of taste. Either way, it's going to sound better than a pick up. I personally prefer the sound of the Schoeps compact series over the DPA miniature mics. Also, the schoeps are a bit more rugged, capsule, cable and connector wise than the DPA's. Less chance of breakage. However, given the number of instruments you've got, budget wise 4 DPA's = 1 Schoeps, I'd go the DPA route. Plus, the 4060's are very easy to come by and do sound great. You can also play around with the different grills or no grill if you want some top end lift or not.

Re the transmitters, I agree with all that has been said. I do like the SKP 500's though, again because they're a bit more rugged, have XLR input rather than needing to use a microdot - 1/8" adapter (again less chance of breakage). This particular transmitter is designed to turn any microphone into a radio mic and has a specific menu function to provide 48v. I've used the schoeps, 414's, KM84 etc with them no problems - batteries last approx 4hrs but I have noticed a drop in signal quality when the batteries start to run down (in the 3hr - 4hr period).

Also agree and have had problems with the Sennheiser's and high sensitivity mics. The 414's mentioned above worked because I could pad both the mic and the transmitter down by up to 30db. If the 4060's are too 'big', try the low sensitivity version, 4061.

John

[tall_phill]

If they are moving around a lot, then the size and weight might be a factor to consider (if looking at the schoeps or dpa compact (not miniature) lines).

RE: Using DPA mics with microdot adaptors.
If reliability is a concern, and when isn't it, you can buy most of the models in the DPA miniature line hard terminated for most of the popular radio mic systems (at least Shure, Senn G2, Senn 3000/5000), which cuts down one extra adaptor from each system.

Best,

Phillip

[Guest]

Thanks for the input everyone.

After using the shre UHF-R's for a few days they are looking like a good option.

As far as the mics go I'm going to give a couple of the dpa's a trial run and see how they go. Are the string clips that you can get for them the best option for attaching them? The performers may be moving around quite a bit.

Thanks again

Tony

[tall_phill]

Tony,

The string mounts that DPA make for their miniature microphones work well. Like every accessory (and microphone) that DPA they cost more than you might think they ought to, but they work well.

If you are anxious that the microphones might get yanked out of position whilst the performers are moving, try using a tab of leukofix to tape the cable to the tail piece. I never need to do this with cabled 4060s / 4061s.

Better still, if it there is space mount the transmitters between the shoulder rests and instruments. This is something that would require a good deal of care/planing/liasing with musicians, and will only work with some shoulder rest designs (On cellos/basses you may be able the mount the tx behind the tail piece). This will do two handy things - remove the tiny wire connection between microphone and body worn transmitters, that can go horribly awry if forgotten about, and moves the transmitters away from the bodies, which will substantially improve reception.

Cheers,
Phillip

[tall_phill]

Stick with the high end Sennheiser or Shures. I use 10 UHF-R's every week. Never a problem. Computer software monitors all RF signals at all times. You'll soon see if you have a problem. I would also look into a scanner, especially if you're moving around the place.

As for switching the high power mode.... be careful. There are laws about that stuff. Better check the legalities first.

50mW should be A OK in australia, as long as your in a frequency range thats legal.

As a comparison, the Sennheiser G2 transmitters are rated at 30mW and the SK50 50mW (duh!). But, if you don't actually need to operate the Shure units in High power don't (ie if your just needing to cover a stage area and the RF spectrum your using is clean), as you'll have greater headroom on your RF front end and will have fewer potential intermod and desense problems.