Plugs VS The REAL Thing !

[NYMo]

Hi there,

Just thought I'd relay this mornings little noodle and see if anybody else can add their own experiences.

I booted up PT HD and set up the Ursa Major Space Station SST 282 plug and a/b'd it (as close as possible) to the one i have sitting in the rack.

I went through a few presets comparing each one.

The results were actually pretty surprising...

The plug was a pretty good representation of the 282 (right down to the noise when it was switched in !)

On longer decay settings the real 282 had more *wobble* in the tail, but you'd never hear this in a busy mix.
The real 282 also had a slightly better width about , I suppose a more 3D type of depth.

Anyways, for those interested I would give the plug 8.5/10

Anybody else want to give a rating on their plug and their rack version ??

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

[Aearth]

I think there are some good plugins that work well and some that should be deleted all together. As far as EQ, delays, reverbs and some other effects, also some unility plugins like pitch control and sound modules etc they work fine. But nothing beats a real compressor, some are close like the MCDSP Channel G, MCDSP ML4000 and I hear the Waves SSL is good.
Now the new instrument plugin popping up are starting to sound very real.....eg EZdrummer.
If you go to most sites and especially Digidesign you can down load demos.

nIC

[wez]

some are close like the MCDSP Channel G, MCDSP ML4000

funny, i bought a McDSP bundle recently and found the ML4000 to be the weakest link in an otherwise good bunch. maybe i just haven't worked it out yet... but in general software compression still has a long ways to go, even at the high end.

also just wanted to add that it's great to hear someone like NYMO doing an actual comparison with the original unit... if i hear another person say 'yeah it sounds just like a 1073' without having ever been in the same room as one...

anyone here own an SSL AND the McDSP G Channel/WAVES SSL?... now there's a comparison i want to hear about.

[TimS]

some are close like the MCDSP Channel G, MCDSP ML4000

anyone here own an SSL AND the McDSP G Channel/WAVES SSL?... now there's a comparison i want to hear about.

Digidesign did a comparision with the SSL plugins and a real SSL - there is a link on their website.
However, they posted the soundfiles as MP3 - pretty much invalidates them I think!!
The process they went thru is explained in detail. Quite interesting
Tim..

[wez]

i think their methodology may have been, umm, questionable. the fact that they have an interest in the result alone invalidates the entire process.

they also know that a large part of their market are users who do not have the ability or resources to distinguish between mp3s (most likely) played back on less than optimum systems. the end result - "i can't hear the difference so the plug in MUST be good".

and don't get me started on the correct procedures for blind and double blind listening tests.

[Aearth]

Like any plugin you just can't push them too hard, that's why the real deal sounds so much better and has more headroom.......but then the biggie....cost. That's why people are off loading their big analogue desks.

nIC

[TimS]

i think their methodology may have been, umm, questionable. the fact that they have an interest in the result alone invalidates the entire process.

they also know that a large part of their market are users who do not have the ability or resources to distinguish between mp3s (most likely) played back on less than optimum systems. the end result - "i can't hear the difference so the plug in MUST be good".

and don't get me started on the correct procedures for blind and double blind listening tests.

Wez,
I agree with you - hence why I think posting in MP3 format to "hear the so called differences" invalidates them completely..
I think that you could only truely do a double blind listening trial, on the same system, with the same monitors, etc..
Too many extraneous variables..

[heathen]

I'm keen to put my api 2500 comp up against the waves emulation of it. I'm sure the real one will sound better. I know the smart c2 is not an ssl though sounds similar I'm told, it craps all over the waves ssl comp, the SSL channel strip though is quite usable, especially on drums, well the eq and gate/expander section is but the channel comp is pretty nasty. I use plugins for eq and run them out into analog units.

I still have not found one plugin reverb I like, not 1. I even don't like altiverb. Though it is very usable just not enjoyable to me.

I've found 2 plugin comps I sort of like, 1 is PSP mastercomp the other is Acustica Nebula which is many plugs in one. Both are extreme cpu hogs so it's still easier to use analog comps for me.

[rick]

the bomb factory pultecs do not sound like my pultecs

but the plug ins are very good eqs in there own right

i think the pultec interface on the screen makes then easy and familar to use , the same goes with the la2a plug in
that said getting two vintage units to sound the same is near impossible

but every plug in fires up just like the last one did so from that point of viewi think plugins are absolute science fiction stuff

i used to have an $11,000 apogee uv-22 encoder hardware box ( the only one in australia )
it had a power supply issue and after three years of grief sending it to and from america apogee finally took it back and gave me a substitute device ( psx-1000) which had the process inside as well as converters which the uv-22 does not have so the trade made me happy ,
i also bought the uv-22 plug ins for my SADIE mastering computers (the plug ins are just a bit shy of $2k each !)

so seeing the uv 22 hardware was a limited run ( about 200 units were made in total ) seeing i have been using the "plug in" on every job we do for about the last 6 years you would think in this case i would think the plug in was the only way to go

last week sony mastering in new york put their two uv22 encoders on evilbay with a buy it now price of 1/10 of what i paid for mine
i bought them in two seconds flat

in fact i could not believe sony were selling them but seeing they are selling them both i figured somebody made them obsolate !

i have lamented on not having the real thing since the day i sent mine back

btw before you run out and u think you need your own uv 22 hardware box , you dont
its a very specific thing and unless you have sony 1630 units that you use a lot , it will be a waste of your money

so my vote is thank god we have BOTH plug insand the real deal

nymo
why on earth do you still use a space station ? hell you could sell it and buy a rmx16
err.. i see your selling your rmx 16 ... my advice is dont sell it
i will buy the next one i can afford , i REALLY wish i did not sell mine

[chris p]

btw before you run out and u think you need your own uv 22 hardware box , you dont
its a very specific thing and unless you have sony 1630 units that you use a lot , it will be a waste of your money

Ha ha aha ha ha

Nice one, Rick. Reminds me of the old "why did the record producer cross the road" joke.

[davemc]

I seen a lot of people now say they used a 1176 on there track and you find out its teh Bomb Factory plugin. Once your used some nice high end devices and try the plugins you can easily notice a difference. Not to say some of teh plugins with the nice GUI's are not useable, a lot are. I just think a photoshopped GUI does not make a plugin sound good.
I just hate the marketing crap where you can now buy a plugin instead of teh real hardware. It seems a lot of plugin makers are now doing is cashing in on known names instead of making plugins with there own character and quirks. They put a nice GUI of something people have seen and for a lot of people the eyes will overwrite there ears.

It is also how experianced you are I know when I started with plugs I thought they were great until I brought some Neve's etc and then I thought ok I will work on teh sound before it hits teh computer.

[heathen]

Another problem I've noticed with gui's is the graphical interface which usually comes with them, so many people watch the graph they just don't listen, I wish with all plugs you could switch it in or out.

There was one eq I really liked the demo I tested, Eliosound Air eq, sort of had an Avalon type sheen in the high end. Nice for a plug in anyway.

The waves L2, has anyone ever noticed a big difference between the hardware and software?

Does anyone have the waves api bundle so we can do a comparison between the software and hardware 2500 comp?

[Jonathan Kristian]

I think that more than the sound of a plug is how you use a real hardware unit vs. its plugin equivilent.

Maybe its just me but having real knobs in front of me that i can turn with my fingers makes me feel like im actually doing something instead of clicking a mouse or entering attack and realease times with a keyboard.

I just dont think you get as creative or try as many things with a plugin as you do with a real unit because they are so slow to use and so fiddly! That in turn affects your final result.

I really wish i had alot more outboard for this lone fact.

But saying that plugins definately are useful...

Just my thoughts...

[David W]

Well ive always been a big fan of the universal audio plugs. To me they sound good in their own right but when mixing drums I still always go for my my analog compressors for that punch i find missing.

Anyway we've been doing some studio renno's latley so used the opportunity while making sure everything was plugged in propperly to do a shootout between my UAD-1 1176LE and Purple MC77 (1176 clone). As many would expect the Purple hardware just did the job better, but out of interest I tried an old favorite my TL Aggro and O..M..G.. while still not prefferable it was damn good on the snare track i tried it on.And this was using over 10db of compression..

I can definatly see the future changing. My only beef is that instead of modeling vintage compressors I would rather see the technology used to do what analoge cannot. We need more creativity from plug in designers/programers.

[NYMo]

nymo
why on earth do you still use a space station ? hell you could sell it and buy a rmx16
err.. i see your selling your rmx 16 ... my advice is dont sell it
i will buy the next one i can afford , i REALLY wish i did not sell mine

Hi Rick,

Yeah...i'm thinking twice about selling the RMX !
(I lurvs me vintage fx !)

I've only just got this HD system, but what I'm noticing is that the plugs sound very sorta flat and 2D, whereas the real thing sounds more 3D (if you know what i mean) (and I'm running an Lynx aurora 16 which should sound better than a Digi 192)

Maybe this is a PT thing ??

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

[jkhuri44]

gday doodz...

i have been getting stuck into the McDSP family of plugins...they are sweetest plugz i've ever used...they do what they're supposed to...

the ML4000 "mastering limiter" is a reaaaaal cool buss comp...and its pretty transparent, with the right settings.

the McDSP compressor Bank, is also killer...really nice EQ/Comp combo, gives things a bit of hair, so they can stand out in a mix even at low volumes!

same goes for the G Channel! awesome stuff!! killer Hard Knee compression!

Im also using MDW eq's...sound nice and clean, never heard a GML EQ, but this one sounds nice in its own right, really nice to clean up mixes with.

[wez]

The waves L2, has anyone ever noticed a big difference between the hardware and software?

to me they are from different planets. the hardware L2 works incredibly well and up to a point has virtually no 'sound'.

the L2 plug sounds shite to me. but again, a lot of people will tell you they can't hear the difference.

worth noting of course that when i use my L2 i'm also hearing the A/D converters... although i very occasionally use the L2 digital in and out so theoretically should sound just like the plug. but it doesn't.

or maybe it's all just in my head. which is fine because that's where i do most of my work.

[jkhuri44]

"We need more creativity from plug in designers/programers."

i could not agree more with that...

[timix]

It's widely reported on several forums that the L2 box & native plugin's null perfectly, The TDM version apparently doesn't null. Interestingly I've heard the L2 box produce a dip in the low mids , making everything sound harsh, even without any limiting, this was in an all digital signal path, & it was only noticeable when the unit was removed from the signal path, the front panel bypass on the unit made no difference. Another digital limiter in the system did not suffer from this anomaly.Might partly explain why most of the big name mastering engineer's rarely use a limiter.

[wez]

most of the big name mastering engineer's rarely use a limiter.

really? are you sure about this?

and i would have thought that the 3 mastering engineers in the world that 'rarely use a limiter' would have better reasons not to use them than because some dude on the internet thought the L2 had some weird frequency response thing happening, which it doesn't.

what was the "the other digital limiter in the system"? i'm curious to know.

[timix]

Anyway we've been doing some studio renno's latley so used the opportunity while making sure everything was plugged in propperly to do a shootout between my UAD-1 1176LE and Purple MC77 (1176 clone). As many would expect the Purple hardware just did the job better, but out of interest I tried an old favorite my TL Aggro and O..M..G.. while still not prefferable it was damn good on the snare track i tried it on.And this was using over 10db of compression..

.

Probably not a fare comparison, the MC77 is not exactly the same as the original, the output amp & transformer are of their own design. And the you have to factor in the sound of converters and any other analog circuitry too. As it is, no two 1176's will sound the same. I think the UAD stuff sounds amazing, very analog like & they manage to capture the tone of the originals, unlike the URS stuff e.g, which still sounds good. The 1176 sounds like I expect it to sound & the Pultec has that magic the real units have just running signal thru it without using any EQ. Does it sound exactly the same as the real thing, well I don't really care?

[heathen]

Might partly explain why most of the big name mastering engineer's rarely use a limiter.

I think you will find most do actually. Though the L2 is not the only option, there are plenty of brick wall digital/plugin limiters around, I actually really like the "timeworks mastercomp" it is clipper but used very carefully the results are loud and clear with minimal clipping. Totally different to the L2.

[davemc]

Probably not a fare comparison, the MC77 is not exactly the same as the original, the output amp & transformer are of their own design. And the you have to factor in the sound of converters and any other analog circuitry too. As it is, no two 1176's will sound the same. I think the UAD stuff sounds amazing, very analog like & they manage to capture the tone of the originals, unlike the URS stuff e.g, which still sounds good. The 1176 sounds like I expect it to sound & the Pultec has that magic the real units have just running signal thru it without using any EQ. Does it sound exactly the same as the real thing, well I don't really care?

I personally have not used the UAD stuff although downloaded a lot of demos of the new GUI copies. The one thing I found they did not do well was just add color and 3D to a sound just running it through. I remember trying the URS neve stuff and they sounded a lot better when I run them through a real neve to add the color they were missing. I do like a few plugins I am a big fan of teh Sony stuff and I thought the MDW eq on HD was real nice. I just think they have no real color and most sound 2D. Although when I had teh studio up and running properly I had real outboard for colour and used some clean plugs for eq and compression.
I just do not like the fact every new plugin seems to be a emulation plugin.

[rick]

It's widely reported on several forums that the L2 box & native plugin's null perfectly, The TDM version apparently doesn't null. Interestingly I've heard the L2 box produce a dip in the low mids , making everything sound harsh, even without any limiting, this was in an all digital signal path, & it was only noticeable when the unit was removed from the signal path, the front panel bypass on the unit made no difference. Another digital limiter in the system did not suffer from this anomaly.Might partly explain why most of the big name mastering engineer's rarely use a limiter.

hmm...

I don't want to fight the good fight for digital but if you can find me a "top mastering studio" that does NOT use a waves L2 or the L3 version (hardware version) I would be very surprised.

Every name place in Australia including ours has them.
Every room in Sterling Sound NYC has them.
Every room in Gateway has them.
Every room in Metropolis UK has them.
Hell, somebody told me even Doug Sax has one!

It is the standard box in all top name mastering places, it is also why records sound squished, why records sound loud, and why they can sound distorted bright and fizzy.

And also why cds can sound amazing if it’s driven the right way
it’s all about the pilot not the box.

Now you have me thinking about it, hell, we are just about to buy another one.

[Damien]

are you looking at L2, L3 or the new BCL?


i have used the bcl live.... it was fantastic (and the cause of some uncomfortable moments until i worked the dam thing out)...

[timix]

It is the standard box in all top name mastering places, it is also why records sound squished, why records sound loud, and why they can sound distorted bright and fizzy.

Not disputin' that, just saying i'ts got a sound, but then so have most of the "classic" Waves plugins, sounds like....umm, digital. Every pro MS has an L2, doesn't mean they use it all the time. have you ever noticed how CD's mastered in some of the biggest MS's with L2's, constantly light the over lights on a digital meter, it's a brickwall limiter right, overs don't get thru, & most ME's turn the output down a tad for safety too? and does every MS with an L2 produce CD's as loud as Sterling Sound?

[timix]

I personally have not used the UAD stuff although downloaded a lot of demos of the new GUI copies. The one thing I found they did not do well was just add color and 3D to a sound just running it through. I remember trying the URS neve stuff and they sounded a lot better when I run them through a real neve to add the color they were missing. I do like a few plugins I am a big fan of teh Sony stuff and I thought the MDW eq on HD was real nice. I just think they have no real color and most sound 2D. Although when I had teh studio up and running properly I had real outboard for colour and used some clean plugs for eq and compression.
I just do not like the fact every new plugin seems to be a emulation plugin.

Not a fare comparison either, the URS stuff sounds good, but does not capture the sound of the electronics like the UAD stuff does. I've compared the URS 550 to a real one & the EQ was hard to tell apart but the real unit has a sound, even with the EQ set flat, that the plug in doesn't. The UAD stuff also has sound, different in each device, with the controls set flat too. Something else that sets the UAD stuff apart from most other plug ins is that they upsample internally to 192k giving an audio response to near a 100k, this contributes to their more analog like sound. The other plugins I've heard that upsample sound better than your average plug in, there's been some major advancements in the last couple of years, which hasn't been possible in the past due to the lack of processing power.

[timix]

most of the big name mastering engineer's rarely use a limiter.

really? are you sure about this?

and i would have thought that the 3 mastering engineers in the world that 'rarely use a limiter' would have better reasons not to use them than because some dude on the internet thought the L2 had some weird frequency response thing happening, which it doesn't.

what was the "the other digital limiter in the system"? i'm curious to know.

I'm widely read & It serves me no purpose to make stuff up.

The other limiter was Weiss, often found in MS's with an L2.

[Kris]

Hi Timix. Welcome to the forums.

There are plenty of great books around about audio but none so good as actually doing it yourself. There are a bunch of people here with a lot of experience in mastering etc. I have seen Rick use the L2 (hardware) on some of my sessions. I would consider Rick a "big name". Just check his discography. Anyway, keen to know who was using the Weiss?

Kris.

[heathen]

Now you have me thinking about it, hell, we are just about to buy another one.

Argggghh nooooooooo, save the dynamics, just joking Rick, the pilot is always the main factor, 100% true.[/quote]