Overseas work....ethics?

[jkhuri44]

Gday guys,

am just working through, possibly my first prospect of overseas work .
i have a problem...i dont know how to proceed!!

The producer is looking for instrumentals to be written for a vocalist he's producing. I've sent short samples (just a looped section) which he likes....and would like to attempt to use.

He asked if i could send the full instrumentals...(alarm bells).

Usually, i wouldnt do something like this locally without some kind of deposit. (to ensure when i finish the full instrumental, im gonna get paid the full amount).

What is the usual ethic with stuff like this...is it normal to just send an mp3 for someone to "try and see if it works" then expect payment later? coz this sure as shit sounds suss to me...I know i said i wouldnt do something like this in Australia...however the difference in this case is that the clients would have met me here before any money swaps hands, so they feel safe and can trust me with their $$...in this case neither of us have met the other...

i've never had any experience with doing it overseas, so your advice would be appreciated. (apologies, seem to be using this place to solve my work problems more often than not these days....I should cry me a river)

[Thirteen]

Can you send full tracks in a relatively low resolution MP3 format and add soft bursts of noise every 5 seconds as a trial piece, and if they like it and want it that can PayPal you and you can deliver clean full range tracks? Make the noise bursts low and reasonably unobtrusive, like a watermark so that it isn't too annoying, but makes the recordings un-usable for release.

[jkhuri44]

i would have thought even just an mp3/of even a stereo wav is unusable for a professional...

i have considered your suggestion steve, thats what i was going to do if the dude doesnt mind the noise bursts....

however the other side of the coin is that....the guy receives the file....and copies all the work i've done, and i get nothing....

the issue here is also intellectual property!

[heathen]

If they are serious about paying you ask for a 25% retainer, that will show you how serious they are.

[ChrisW]

i would have thought even just an mp3/of even a stereo wav is unusable for a professional...

I wouldn't count on that.
Also, your point about them just redoing all your parts is a good one.
Tough situation.
Surely they can figure out if the song will work without an intro and outro (hard edit?).
You might send off an mp3 of one track and hope for the best.
If you get ripped off put it down to an educational experience.

[musikwerks]

Contract.

Contract.

Contract.

Before sending him anything get him to sign an agreement saying that you're the owner/composer of the works "XYZ" and that he agrees to only use the tracks as temporary items with a view to incorporating them officially into his production later down the line. That way if he does just copy your tunes you have proof that he has heard them and a judge will easily see the link between yours and his.

Always assumes worst case. It's not show friends, it's show business.

[rick]

you know what i think ...?
its overseas , so if he stiffs you you wont run into him at a party, just take the plunge into human kind being ok , do what he asks , if you get stiffed .. move along , if you dont move along .
you need to learn the real warning signs , so your going to get a few turkeys from time to time
it comes with the territory

[jkhuri44]

thats what i was thinking, haha ^rick

[heathen]

I guess the most you can lose is a couple of days writing, could be a decent payday too.

[jkhuri44]

well, what i could guess is a couple days writing an instrumental i could flog off here...for money.

as rick said, i was planning on playing the human card, coz im not really in the mood to piss off some potential work....the whole retainer idea is good too

thanks guys for helping !

[ChrisW]

I guess the most you can lose is a couple of days writing

It's a bit of a catch 22.
In a way you have to speculate to accumulate.
I've taken plenty of risks over the years, the majority don't pay off, but you always learn something along the route.
There's also intangibles like when you work on something, earn no money and get ripped off.... then years later someone vaguely connected to the gig gets back in touch with a serious project.
Also, no one likes to be characterized as a potential crook.
I can't tell you how many times decent contacts of mine have refused to work with people who barge in with contracts and lawyers all over the place.

[jkhuri44]

thanks for your reply chris,

thats the way i feel about tihngs deep down, i just wanted to get an idea of what other here thought.

trusting in people's honesty seems to be the way to go for now.

Cheers,

J.

[jkhuri44]

oh, and the comment about no one wanting to be painted as a potential crook was why i posted the question in the first place...! i needed some confirmations!!

[musikwerks]

Interesting perspective ChrisW.... I've been ripped off too many times so I disagree. I won't work without a contract or some kind of written road map for the project. My clients respect it as it gives them a level of protection as well. Been booked solid for the past 2 years so it doesn't seem to be affecting my business. It's my opinion that if someone is reluctant to formalise an agreement then it's a good sign that I shouldn't get involved with them at all.

[ChrisW]

It absolutely depends on the kind of gig.
All the film & tv work I did had contracts.
They were as much to protect the employer as they were me I think.
It has to be said, some of the contracts didn't get signed until the end of the work.
Very little of the drumming I've done has involved contracts.
I've made albums with people, sent in my invoice a couple of weeks later and hoped to be paid (which I have been thankfully).
I've never signed a contract to book a studio.

Recently I've been involved in software - individual drum hits and performance loops.
Both companies were unknown to me in the beginning.
We worked on the projects as contracts were being negotiated.
It shows a measure of goodwill between both parties. It shows you are mostly thinking about the product, not the income you hope to make.
Of course, contracts were always agreed and signed before the final masters were handed over.

Apart from film & tv, my experience is if you start talking about contracts and hiring lawyers early on people take a dim view and often run a mile.
I can tell you, business contacts have called me asking if I know certain people and can vouch for their character, because certain people have hit them with a 42 page contract or a heavy sounding letter from a lawyer while my contacts felt like they were in the early stages of exploring a creative project that was mutually beneficial.
In pretty much every case the two parties have ended up not working together.

[musikwerks]

Of course, contracts were always agreed and signed before the final masters were handed over.

Yes, I do that too.

Apart from film & tv, my experience is if you start talking about contracts and hiring lawyers early on people take a dim view and often run a mile.
I can tell you, business contacts have called me asking if I know certain people and can vouch for their character, because certain people have hit them with a 42 page contract or a heavy sounding letter from a lawyer while my contacts felt like they were in the early stages of exploring a creative project that was mutually beneficial.
In pretty much every case the two parties have ended up not working together.

I would say a 42-ish page contract would be definitely a turn off.

[Chinagraf]

It's always tricky finding the right balance with people you don't know. I think the important thing to talk about in a writing situation is the split. My brother and I were asked to write with a big artist based here but very successful overseas. We wanted to sort publishing first but our management at the time said try a few tracks and see how we work together first, which is fair enough I guess..We did a few tracks for them to try, they liked, we met and they wanted 75% of the publishing. Elvis only took 50%. So we bailed out. Waste of time all round. The artist's next album tanked in production and never made it out...

[ChrisW]

It is nice when you work with people who are fair minded and easy to deal with.

I guess the more you work the more often you come up against the less easy to deal with people.

[chris p]

Jamil

You could always post a short sample of the finished work on {insert social networking site of preference here}.

That way, if you do get stiffed there is at least some evidence that the work is yours and that it predates the o/s production.

But despite RO'Ns post, I would take a leaf from his words - if they won't sign a contract or look to pay you on delivery of the goods, what sort of "exposure" do you think you are going to get from them? Do you feel that you are being treated professionally by people who are serious about producing and marketing a product?

[rick]

Interesting perspective ChrisW.... I've been ripped off too many times so I disagree. I won't work without a contract or some kind of written road map for the project. My clients respect it as it gives them a level of protection as well. Been booked solid for the past 2 years so it doesn't seem to be affecting my business. It's my opinion that if someone is reluctant to formalise an agreement then it's a good sign that I shouldn't get involved with them at all.

ripped off..?
i have never been ripped off - i have signed about 10 things in 25 years , none of then ever turned into money
i have entered into countless arrangements , mostly never turning into money either - but ripped off?
you have to have made real judgement mistakes or have been really unlucky to end up in that position in this business

if you run around worrying about getting ripped , you will... its not all about money , the frame of mind that kind of distrust puts you in , short changes you for all kinds of things in this business is my feeling .

make no mistake , i am not saying act stupidly , its just that communication beats litigation every time in my book
look learn listen , dont make the same mistakes twice - life should be good

tire kick , litigate and place demands on people for imaginary situation that might arise and you will get paid sure
but .. hell i am just not that guy - it costs too much

i am worried about you Kris - you need to talk that through with someone
err probably best it not a lawyer ...

[jkhuri44]

now i play the waiting game :P

the balls are in mr crooks court hehehe

[heathen]

now i play the waiting game :P

the balls are in mr crooks court hehehe

Better hope he gives it back and does'nt run off with it! :D

[ChrisW]

its just that communication beats litigation every time in my book
look learn listen , dont make the same mistakes twice

I guess that's how I've tried to work in music.


In fairness to Kris, the closest I've come to being ripped off by an established company was in film & tv (going by Kris signature career description).

Those people just don't value music or musicians IME. There is so much competition they can screw you and move on to the next hopeful composer.
Pop/rock music and music software however has been straight with me, but I am very mindful of who I work with.

[musikwerks]

I'm ok Rick. The times I have been ripped off were in relation to me putting together (at client request) as Producer, a very detailed brief/working plan for an album and then having that client take my budget, methods, equipment list and additional personnel and do the job with another producer who was slightly cheaper. This happened a few times but because of who the client is/was (you know who they are) I decided against asking them to formalise our agreement. This happened twice in an audio situation and even worse, a backing out of a deal after the job was done in a film environment. Same client, same benefit of the doubt from me.... never again. I don't come in to a meeting with contracts flapping in my hands but I'm not going to be somebody's door mat either. The situations I have been 'ripped off' in were actual working environments, not imaginary and the pain they caused at the time was also very real, both financially and emotionally.

[Linear]

A very good friend of mine (and partner in the studio) is a music and entertainment lawyer. He said that in 90% of cases in the entertainment biz, a contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Why? Because in most instances, the cost of enforcing the contract outweighs the money you are trying to recover. Add to that the fact that a good lawyer would find ways to get out of the contract anyway. It happens an aweful lot. Unless you've got deep pockets and can afford to lose a bunch on legal fees, I'd stick to an old-fashioned handshake/personal relationship/give you my word. Funnily enough, I find this more enforceable than a contract.

Now the fact that this guy is OS means ANY contract you get with him would be incredibly difficult (almost impossible?) and expensive to enforce. So I wouldn't bother with a contract.

Chris

[Linear]

One more thing - I've only been ripped off once ever (touch wood) by some douchbag from Adelaide.

Here's the thing - I have taken him to court, received judgement in my favour, enforced the judgement in SA etc etc. The problem is, this guy has no money.

SO a contract (and the subsequent judgement) meant NOTHING as the guy was broke anyway. So unless you do a credit check before you start (as if you would), there's no point in a contract.

I had a bad feeling at the time so should have trusted my gut. Judgement is the key.

Chris

[musikwerks]

For the record, I do have clients with whom a phone call is enough. They're the ones I work with regularly. I'm talking about unknowns and problem clients here.

[rick]

ok kris i assumed your "ripped off" situations were the ones we discussed privately in the past
This is why I suggested you talk to somebody about it .

if your response to the post was "contract contract contracts" then you are on the wrong trust page with your "associates" or still very bitter about the past incidents. - it does not seem in the spirit of the barrel you guys push for you still to "feel ripped off"..even if you were done over - surely you have some way of fleshing the thing out with your team so you dont hang on to this stuff
i am more concerned for you then about your statements - lots of people are contract types - thats not the problem

You all know I am not advocating stupidity, but in jamils case I did a quick mental risk assessment / work done / financial /possible gain versus real loss assessment.... Lawyers are the last ting he needs to do with his first o/seas client .

and if /when/perhaps this ones blows up , he will know a whole lot of stuff he didn't about doing business
if it pans out ... well its another couple of names in his book of clients and i bet he wont be buying a porsche next week either way

it might be show business not show friends , but this business is going to suck up all of your present and future time
So trust me it's really nice to make same friends along the way .
"do one to others " and all that stuff
i am certainly not anti contracts , they are very important when the stakes are high , and variables unknown

But you can get the same benefits buy writing a one page email that states clearly what you expect to happen as part of the business transaction , the other party need not sign — if they dump on you .. There would have been signs along the way for you to see

a contract does not change the fact you need to know what your doing because sometimes they are as stated not worth the paper they are written on , so be watchfull , but i figure life is too short to always be suspicious of human kind especially in this business

of course there a bunch of lawyers on this forum , biting their tongues trying real hard not to jump in
but if they feel the need please present the case for the cost of the contract for both parties upfront on a small overseas deal
where the stakes are low .. i.e. how much would jami and his new friend have to spend each to "get a signed contract"
what would be the cost of enforcing an o/seas dispute ...?

[jkhuri44]

of course there a bunch of lawyers on this forum , biting their tongues trying real hard not to jump in
but if they feel the need please present the case for the cost of the contract for both parties upfront on a small overseas deal
where the stakes are low .. i.e. how much would jami and his new friend have to spend each to "get a signed contract"
what would be the cost of enforcing an o/seas dispute ...?

everytime i hear the L word or the C word...(no, not that c word)!! my head hurts....im really bad with all that stuff, contracts lawyers et al....i am interested in learning more about it though..so if anyone has anything to say, im all ears :-)

thanks again so far for all who are chiming in, this is good!

[ChrisW]

One thing I've learnt is that 'overseas' artists are often treated as potential cheats, possibly just because there is distance involved and a slight language barrier.
By distance I mean if you don't hear back from them for a couple of months, you can't drop by their studio and see what's going on. So people are wary.
When I was UK based I worked a lot with Italian artists, a few French, a few Spanish, Americans of course..... and I took on a major business relationship with a Swedish company.
I can say I never once had a bad experience.
All these people are well aware of how the business works in the UK, USA and places like Australia. If they feel like they are being treated differently, or with more suspicion, it's a major turn off (and reasonably so I think).

Like I said earlier, artists will gossip negatively about musicians or record producers who've come in brandishing contracts.
I've always been relaxed about insisting on contracts.
It's the norm in film & tv, mainly as it sets out the payment schedule and what the film makers require of the composer. Therefore we are both protected.
Same with touring. I've only ever seen contracts at the highest level - the kind of tours where you take medicals and fill out insurance forms etc...
Again, both sides are protected. I agree to make my services available for the several months of the tour, and to act responsibly. The employer agrees to pay me a certain fee and to employ me for the duration of the tour, not to sack me when Vinnie Calaiuta suddenly becomes available.