Piracy: are we being conned? - SMH article link

[chribble]

Just posting an article I read today thought it was interesting way to look at it.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/piracy-are-we-being-conned-20110322-1c4cs.html

edit:linkfix

[Kurt]

Can't let reason and fact get in the way of a good scare campaign though!

[DarkSky]

Can't let reason and fact get in the way of a good scare campaign though!

Yes. Among other things, they fail to even establish that pirated downloads give rise to a proportion (any proportion) of lost sales and revenues. Simply pointing to declining revenue or increasing piracy is not enough to prove a link (or to establish the extent of the link), and there are in fact a number of reasons for declining revenues that have nothing to do with piracy.

I'm not defending piracy, but the "research" that is put forward (not limited to the article mentioned above) is pretty lame IMO.

[chribble]

Hey I'm not saying this is a good idea.
But maybe its time more people started doing things like this

[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/appsblog/2011/mar/21/ipad-classic-album-apps[/url]

With the web and tv expanding there is more media than ever so in theory there should be more opportunity.

[rick]

I have known label people my whole working life
as a rule they really never know whats what
if its it is selling is because of all the hard word they did
If it's a dead flop is because there wasnt enough ...err actually they never do talk about the reasons for the flops

I have a problem with piracy on principle
But I have no idea who is doing what and by how much and who it's hurting .
that said I never known a label not to be hurting .. even in the good old days

[DarkSky]

...I have a problem with piracy on principle
But I have no idea who is doing what and by how much and who it's hurting .
that said I never known a label not to be hurting .. even in the good old days

Exactly, Rick.

Seems like it hasn't occurred to the labels that music might not be selling "like it used to" because so much of it's plastic and vacuous and disposable and (for the most part) without ideas or inspiration. The labels tend to opt for minor cookie cutter and "recycled excitement" hits that are cheap and easy and predictably safe. So, consequently, they miss out on the mega hits - the ones that signal huge changes of direction and that by nature are harder, more expensive and more risky (but pay off much bigger when they hit the motherload). And we're all poorer for it.

But then, when their endless play-it-safe stocking stuffers only sell moderately well, they're out looking for someone to lay the blame on (again).

[Drumstruck]

I'm flabbergasted !! Someone trying a con in the music industry? Surely that would never happen......

[Milo]

The latest casualty, as you probably know, is EMI bought by Citibank.
Now, THERE'S a load of pirates.

[ChrisW]

Rather sad to read most of the comments so far.
I regularly talk to industry people in the uk, producers, studio musicians etc.... They've never known it so dead.
Who said piracy was 100% to blame? No one actually.
But if times are tough and a fairly large proportion of your potential customers are taking the product without paying for it, is that a good thing for the industry? And by 'industry' I don't mean 'men in suits', I mean musicians, studio personnel etc.
I have a fairly hefty involvement in music software. If I google one of my products, I get more search results offering the product illegally free (from file sharing sites) than i do from online stores.
I think that rates as 'a fact'?
Tell me I'm conning you by worrying about that. I assume the vast number of illegally free opportunities are there by popular demand. Then how would you claim they are NOT somehow stealing customers away from me? That just goes against common sense doesn't it?
It's actually not about my personal wealth. I'm over 50 now and want to see new and innovative music thrive. With one revenue stream lost, I worry about that future.
And it isn't about new technology, it's really about people taking something for nothing, without our permission and against our wills.
What's so right about that?

[Kurt]

I agree in principle but to use massive exaggeration and outright fabrication to try and influence Australian law is wrong. Cry poor all you like but claiming thousands of job losses directly attributable to piracy whilst making record profits seems a little off to me.

I was upset when my band's album was up on torrent sites a week after we put it out but I don't think draconian copyright laws that see infringers get more jail time than murderers are by any means any rational answer to the problem.

[mylesgm]

I dont think anyone is making record profits in the music business except rebecca black. When I talk to significantly older, more experienced and well established engineers/producers and they make around 0-$100 per day more than I do I worry about my future. This is in part to do with business practises and who we choose to work for but it is also significantly about the ability of the artists pay us to work with them which is a direct result of how much money they can earn from the sale/licensing of their product. If I'm still working as hard as I currently do (and I certainly don't want for work) and after tax sit just above the poverty line after 10 years of hard work in the industry I certainly don't want that to be the case after 20 years. My brother makes more money as a low level call centre chap, has more benefits, more security etc than I ever have regardless of my university degrees, my awards, my 20 album a year career and the respect of my peers. I don't want to swap my career for his but there is something wrong with our industry.

And the rebecca black details? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friday_(Rebecca_Black_song)
Maybe my business model just sucks but I wouldn't trade it for theirs either.

[ChrisW]

I agree.
The huge point for me as that industry exaggeration (which I have absolutely no control over) does not mean piracy isn't having a big negative affect on creative people, nor does it mean the people are being 'conned'. The SMH article is just as exaggerated from the other point of view.
The reality is, there's a huge amount of discussion and debate going on, and many creative people, such as record producers, band managers and artists are vocal about the situation. Most of these people are being honest and calling it how it is. None of those people have ever said piracy is 100% to blame for tough times in the music scene, but they are honestly portraying it as a very damaging factor.
So when journalists such as the SMH one just focus on mainstream industry bodies, claim the music industry only blames piracy, and claims creative professionals are conning the public, it's just another form of biased propaganda.
The dairy farm next door to me is hurting big time from the Coles vs Woolies price war. The supermarkets are a legitimate business pricing the product to suit their needs. When you have an illegitimate business (pirates) pricing your product at $0, it's just nonsense to claim it doesn't kill careers.

[mylesgm]

but I also agree with you Kurt, putting a single mother away for 'piracy' because her child downloaded stuff like everybody else is just wrong anyway you look at. There has to be real conversation and regulation that doesn't make citizens criminals.
People who say that 'you wouldn't steal a car, so why steal music' forget that if I could download a new car for free with no possibility of prosecution I doubt that I would hesitate.

[ChrisW]

I don't think draconian copyright laws that see infringers get more jail time than murderers are by any means any rational answer to the problem.

1) Has that happened? No
2) Is it on the agenda? No

So I really think we need to have a rational discussion to save a lot of creative people from going to work in the mines

I'm a creative independent and am not represented by ARIA and the like, but there is also a ton of misinformation and scaremongering coming from the piracy lobby, such as your quote about copyright infringers getting more jail time than murderers.

[ChrisW]

if I could download a new car for free with no possibility of prosecution I doubt that I would hesitate.

If you knew it was wrong and you would be putting someone else out of a job I think you probably wouldn't.
Unfortunately the SMH article paints the creative industries as greedy and the bad guy in this situation. How I can be the bad guy when I work hard to produce a software instrument and someone in Brisbane or Perth takes it illegally without buying it is beyond me, but that's the propaganda. The pirate lobby knows the more it paints the creative arts as luddites who are over paid, the more they can excuse their wrong doing.
No mother has ever gone to jail because their child has downloaded music illegally. So there is a lot of righteous sounding misinformation going around.

[The Tasmanian]

I agree with Chris here.
I have spent my whole life in this industry (I recorded my first album as a 16 years old) - and I have never seen it in as bad a state as it is now.
For eg: 6 years ago, 50% of my studios income, and my personal production, mixing income came from record companies - now its more like 5% -(if that!)
I don't stick up for major record companies at all (very little respect for their business model as a whole) - but all of these great smaller labels run out of people's home offices/loungerooms that even 3 years ago could afford to put an artist in the studio for $3-$5k are now not doing so.
Great small dedicated independent music loving labels, that were almost running at near cost now will lose money to put a album out -so they don't unless the artist pays for it themselves.
Another example - I am soon to do an album for a band with over 300,000 sales under their belt, a constant world touring act - and the budget = $3.5k for an album - all paid for by themselves - no label will even give them $1.5k! - and - they want me to master it too as there is no budget for that either!
The songwriter of this band now drives a taxi during the day.
Experienced Graphic artists, film clip makers, mastering engineers, managers, crew, assistants, mixers, recording engineers, studio tech's with lifetime experience, equipment repairers, small music retailers, second hand music shops', music lawyers, publishers, experienced record company workers & marketing crews - are all struggling to survive- and are dropping like flies.
And its not my income that I worry about, its all the bands having no support from the industry as a whole.
The playing live (captured market) thing has become the only way for a band to attempt to survive, but the smart bands were doing this anyway - well before all this piracy stuff happened.
Then there are these newcomers coming out of study into an industry that has almost no hope of ever offering anyone a job - it is sad indeed.
Its worse in the film industry - I have long term friends that have walls full of AFI awards that are now gardening or building for a job! Such great world class experience and talent wasted.
It aint gonna change - and anyone would be a fool to think that it can.
My instinct tells me that in a few years time, one may as well work for McDonalds - the pay will be double - or even triple.
Anyone wanting a full time job as an assistant or an engineer - forget it - get a real job, and do this as a hobby.
I saw this coming a long long time ago - and I made sure that I put every spare cent I made in the good times back into great equipment, paying off loans etc, so that when the shit hit the fan (now) I had no debts and could make great quality albums for very little money.
But hey - I'll still make albums for $7 per hour because I love my job.

[ChrisW]

+1
Sad to say I've had very similar experiences and would agree with every word.

I've never been a fan of major labels. I have a friend who found an economic alternative writing, recording and releasing his own music as limited edition vinyl.
He tells me within a few days of each release, the music is uploaded to a filesharing site and his vinyl sales drop off the cliff.

[rick]

3.5 k for the album ?
what are they going to do with the spare 3 k !

the thing with copyright piracy and the effects of new things ebay -itunes-youtube- torrents .. whatever all these things are in a state of flux
in 5 years time the problems will have moved a bit the solutions come a whole closer - new problems will emerge

but in the washup i firmly believe music is like water
we all need it and it will always find its own level.

so why am i building a great big studio in such climate ?
well its the same reason we all do what we do
I want to ..
nobody to blame but myself for that one

[The Tasmanian]

Rick - you are very lucky that you came from a time where you could be employed by a record company (Festival) - and the industry supported your talents and hard work and dreams.
If I was starting out now in this industry - I would study hard and start a business in the renewable energy sector, and do this as a hobby/labour of love.
I do commend your dedication building a new facility in these times - but you don't have much of a choice really.

[rick]

Rick - you are very lucky that you came from a time where you could be employed by a record company (Festival) - and the industry supported your talents and hard work and dreams.
If I was starting out now in this industry - I would study hard and start a business in the renewable energy sector, and do this as a hobby/labour of love.
I do commend your dedication building a new facility in these times - but you don't have much of a choice really.

yeah i understand that 25 years ago i started a job that ran ten years - right place right time and all that stuff
but the point is of coarse i have a choice in what i do from now on - we all do
there are no guns to our heads no warzone no dictators no airstrikes no sunami around here not even a bankrupt economy

in fact when the world is in really dire times ( as in this very month ) we should be happy to be where we are doing what we love i reckon
its been a hell of a month around the world


I was in bunnings today and there was a sign looking for staff ,
if I ever decide to go and get a wages job , I am a bright enough guy i am good at anything I really set my mind to learning
as i dare say are most of us on the forum
of coarse i have a choice - we all do , i could be just doing the studio in the garden shed like the smart money guys are !

I have chosen to play with my hand tools powertools and machines at night for the year to build what i want what i have always wanted
my point earlier on was pretty much that label people have never been together and straight up and down
so although piracy stinks i dont expect any label efforts to do anything usefull


you should see the river redgum kitchen table i finished for the studio last night
its ... well its stunning !

i would like to see somebody pirate that !

[The Tasmanian]

Yeah - it makes a place real special when the owner designs and uses his bare hands to make it.
Especially a dining table !
I was really fortunate to do a my trade in carpentry (even though I thought it was a waste of time - when I could have been making music and albums)
Without those skills I would never have been able to fund or do what I achieved.
At BJB I made a 4m oregan dining table over 15 years ago - all the bands lunches/dinners/cookoff's/kids playing on it has almost made it the most important asset for me. More important than any piece of gear in a strange way - great memories stay with you - gear is a transient joy.

Carpentry is good for the soul - and in a strange way, prepares one for album making - building solid foundations for buildings and songs/music/recording and mixing.
There is something inherently cold about a facility that has just thrown buckets of money at it and hired designers and workers to make a studio instead of the bare hands and dedication and sweat from the owner. (all the 301 studios ???)

Look forward to the opening and checking out the table.

[rick]

Too true chris



The seat is made out of a set of huge oregan beams
that i found lying around the top started out yesterday
as a rough edge rough sawn slab
all night later .......
It looks too good for a wood butcher like me

thats the thing about pirates they actually dont create
anything ....oh well they lose in the long run

[Kurt]

No shed, no tools and absolutely no woodworking skills here I would love to make something tangible.

[ChrisW]

yeah i understand that 25 years ago i started a job that ran ten years - right place right time and all that stuff
but the point is of coarse i have a choice in what i do from now on - we all do

The other very important angle for me is that I'm a music fan.
I don't really want hordes of people leaving music and putting their creativity to another industry (games, iPad apps, television soap operas).

I think the battle is as much about protecting the future of music as it is about personal careers.
So music may find it's own level despite piracy, but I'd hate to see music become marginalized, or dominated by part timers, just so as my neighbors can get mp3's illegally, without paying for them.

[rick]

No shed, no tools and absolutely no woodworking skills here I would love to make something tangible.

hmm well if you really would then i think you probably could

it nowhere as hard as making records
just like making records , you just have to be interested in how its done and before you know your doing it

I am finding a long night on the tools all by myself to be far more satisfing then i ever imagined ,
It looks like work.... smells like work.... tastes like work
but somehow it feels like art

[audioio]

The playing live (captured market) thing has become the only way for a band to attempt to survive, but the smart bands were doing this anyway - well before all this piracy stuff happened.

I find it strange that we went through a period when recording became possible and many artists created great works that could only come to be in the studio and never live. Now, because of more advances in technology, they're forced into a "new minstrelsy".

A lot of people privilege performance and instrumental ability and would say that's as it should be (and maybe moreso, since Rebecca Black). But does that mean that people who choose to create "unperformable" works of value, however value might be measured, are not entitled to reward for their work, just because they can't or don't perform it live?

Would we say that authors should only be able to earn a living through readings of their works in front of an audience?

I enjoy performance as much as anyone but I don't want to live in that restrictive world.

[DarkSky]

I have a fairly hefty involvement in music software. If I google one of my products, I get more search results offering the product illegally free (from file sharing sites) than i do from online stores.
I think that rates as 'a fact'?

Hi Chris,
I feel your pain, and yes that may rate as fact.

But that fact doesn't necessarily indicate that as many as a single one of the creeps that freeloaded would still have used the software (or the mp3s or whatever) if they actually had to pay real $$ for it. The folk who will rush off to download what they can for nix are, for the most part, not the same folk who have the income or inclination to pay for it as a product. There may be some exceptions. Who knows how many.

So, my point was that the fact that 300 people illegally download something doesn't necessarily indicate that, if illegal downloads were prevented, there would have been 300 additional sales (might have been three more sales, or maybe thirty, might be none - who knows!). But that's the kind of assumption that the figures quoted in the smh article are based on.

[ChrisW]

So, my point was that the fact that 300 people illegally download something doesn't necessarily indicate that, if illegal downloads were prevented, there would have been 300 additional sales (might have been three more sales, or maybe thirty, might be none - who knows!). But that's the kind of assumption that the figures quoted in the smh article are based on.

Yes, I agree. But, and it's a big BUT, it works both ways. I can't say any of the 300 would have bought the product. You can't say none of the 300 would have bought the product.
So the simplest solution is to stop the stealing (somehow).
However, I do find your point stretches incredulity and any common sense about human behaviour. Nothing personal by the way, the point you make is made daily by people attacking the creative industries and copyright holders etc.....
Do we honestly think 300 people downloading the latest Missy Higgins track would never have bought it? If so, why are 300 people downloading it?
I don't honestly think 300 people going to all the trouble of seeking out illegal versions of EZdrummer (for example) and waiting a period of time for it to download, are not going to use it.
Thing is, if you want to use it, you have to pay the fee.
I've looked on some of the torrent forums, and the people who download my software product are super excited and can't wait to start using it.
Personally I'd happily give up 300 illegal downloads of EZdrummer for 1 legal sale. The people who take my work against my wishes are not 'fans' nor are they valuable future customers, they're freeloaders plain and simple.

[Drumstruck]

I am finding a long night on the tools all by myself to be far more satisfing then i ever imagined ,

... a paraphrase is worth a thousand pictures? ..... (sorry Rick)

But on the topic - the ease of downloading must surely be a temptation to someone who wants the song, but doesn't want it quite enough to shell out..... we can put in security / authentication requirements on downloads to limit access and make a sale "more likely", but there are always those people with the h@cker mindset who will crack it just to prove that it can be done and then make it publicly available to show what they "achieved"- and I don't foresee a way to stop this happening (well I can, but I wouldn't want to restrict personal freedoms that much).

I guess you guys used the cassette medium to copy songs in your youth - I know I did from records and from the radio (even used reel to reel and a mic before cassettes came along).... and I remember the establishment talk back then that this "free copying mindset" would destroy the music industry - time has shown that it didn't, and neither did bootleg records (and I suppose we all have some of them too??).

When CD burners and apps like Decryptor became readily available the same fear arose - I guess you all know the law (loophole?) that says you're allowed to make a backup copy of your licenced software - but shops / companies that sell CDs still live on.

Methinks this may be another blip.

The real challenge will come when computers interface directly with the brain - direct downloads / thought activation / next Gen MIDI - if that day comes maybe even skilled audio engineers (your good selves) will no longer be needed. I think I'll be pushin' up daisies by then though.

[ChrisW]

I guess you guys used the cassette medium to copy songs in your youth - I know I did from records and from the radio (even used reel to reel and a mic before cassettes came along).... and I remember the establishment talk back then that this "free copying mindset" would destroy the music industry - time has shown that it didn't

I dunno. Maybe time is showing that it will.
Cassettes and bootleg albums are surely a different level of copying to digital don't you think? My neighbour has downloaded literally hundreds of songs (he revealed as we chatted about how great braodband is). Do you think he would have copied all that music to cassette, while doing his 9 to 5 and looking after 3 kids?

shops / companies that sell CDs still live on.

Like JB HI-Fi?
Borders Australia just closed down. Borders in the U.S. are getting scarcer on the ground. Actual retail record stores in downtown London are virtually impossible to find.
There's Amoeba in LA, although I always used to spend an hour or two browsing at Tower on Sunset, now long gone.
OK, it ain't the musical apocalypse, but I think we should also fight to keep the industry going in the face of apparently acceptable plundering of content.
I know more people hanging on with just a little income, than I know those enjoying the industry like I used to 10, 20, 30 years ago.