What's happening to the recording industry? and its future?

[Drumstruck]

Note to self : stop reading this thread and go put the guitar parts down for that song...

Yes!!!

[The Tasmanian]

Ive made the conscious decision to never work in the medium again as a composer.

I'll put my music in a singing dogshit on the ground outside a restaurant before I'll play the music data game.

I would be proud to be known as the singing dogshit composer....
much more kudos than a MP3 maker.

Anyone want to collab?

[mylesgm]

I would be proud to be known as the singing dogshit composer....

I'm pretty sure David would fund that, so I'm in.

[The Tasmanian]

OK Myles
your on...

At least no-one will pick up the shit and take it home, record the stinky compositions, put it up on the web as a MP3.

Its all about redefining the medium, finding a new angle, something that is hard or difficult to copy.
I think we are onto something... when you get back lets go!

[jasound]

Chris there's enough shit music out there already.
Maybe you could call it Poop music. Scooby do a do a.

[Sammas]

Sounds like the audio derivative of the Cloaca. I think there might actually be one at MONA.

An artistic mechanical creation of the digestive system that literally shits on a regular basis. I don't know if Wim Delvoye, the guy who created it, still sells the shit but he used to get thousands of dollars per poo... presumably from some arty time who is putting it on the mantle piece next to his or her Ming vase.

Brings a whole new perspective to the phrase "this isn't art, its shit!"

[The Tasmanian]

Yes Jason - there is so much shit music out there - but they are just pretending.
Myles and i are gonna take it to the next level.
No-one will copy it either!...

And Nath - Yes there is a Cloaca at MONA - purpose built for the place.
Wim Delvoye is a absolute genius - the breadth of his work is astonishing, he really is one of the greats.
MONA had a retrospective on last year, so incredible, so varied, beautiful , and even confronting and stinky as in Cloaca. And his shit stinks!
Jewelry, stained glass windows, motorbikes in chrome sunglasses cases, Tattoo'd humans (Tattoo Tim - who has an artwork on his back, and a contract upon death to be skinned and mounted - he actually came and recorded with me)

Check out this full sized concrete mixer on the roof of MONA - all made from etched steel, all the parts, steering wheel, brakes dashboard etc etc.
(I'm a huge fan)

Wim Concrete truck.png

[Ben M]

Loved the Cloaca. I just don't know if I could be gallery floor staff and hang around the smell all day...as wholesome as it is.

[The Tasmanian]

Funny - I talk to the staff at times - tell them they have a shit job!
It only poos once a day, I often wonder if they draw straws to see who has the gig each day?

The staff also have to feed it each day to keep the stomach alive, sometimes they do Thai food, Italian - you name it.
I wonder if it has had diarrhea yet?

Makes me think of the saying - my shit dont stink. Because compared to Cloaca, I often thought my shit seems to be much more palatable.

When Wym did his retrospective, there were 3 Cloaca's just outside my tunnel work, I used to feel so sick going to work.
At the opening, he made the machine drunk - filled its mouth with lollies, cakes and bottles of champagne!
Glad it finished and the custom built one is at the other end of Mona.

[The Tasmanian]

I also think it is quite apt that we are talking a lot about shit....
the industry that is...

[ChrisW]

It's recently been revealed Simon Cowell is the highest paid person on US Television.

[The Tasmanian]

Oh dear... that really surprises me, I thought there would have been someone of much more value to the world of TV / entertainment......
...then we may as well stay on the fecal analogies, unless we are understating things?

[Linear]

It's recently been revealed Simon Cowell is the highest paid person on US Television.

doesn't surprise me.

you see, people still desperately want to be entertained by music - it's almost like music is hardcoded into our DNA. music can make you feel something that no other art form can do.

but unfortunately the way people consume music (and entertainment in general) is evolving. i don't think music, as a 2-channel audio file played back on whatever system someone bought from target/kmart/jbhifi, is cutting it. competition for entertainment dollars is fierce - but if you can offer something special the the rewards are huge.

it's like video games - it used to be it's own entertainment genre. but now it seems like video games is crossing into the feature film realm - and eating into feature film revenue. It's no longer enough to write a mediocre script, throw lots of money at marketing and expect to make money. Video games are taking feature films to the next level.

So in the absence of anything better, Simon Cowell (whom I despise) has managed to roll music into primetime TV entertainment. He's obviously doing well out of it, and until someone comes up with a better conduit for music we're all going to have to live with it.

so yes, the faeces analogy works pretty well ;-0

[The Tasmanian]

That is very interesting points Chris V.
I'd never thought about video games basically becoming like interactive feature films, with story lines that evolve in different directions depending on where you are heading in the game.
I suppose that is a good thing because as static games they don't hold much interest in the long run.

And as you point out, all entertainment is evolving - which has to be a good thing when looked at it from this angle.
As long as its changing - there is no need to get too upset.

But unfortunately for our industry, quality is not part of the equation these days, recording and songwriting has become so cheap, disposable, like the crappy devices and formats we are content to listen through.

[ChrisW]

First, the Cowell thing proves there is still big money to be made in music. It's just that the distribution has never been less equitable (despite the promise of the internet). The top 10% like Cowell are making so much money they don't know what to do with it. Meanwhile, the less manufactured, more adventurous middle band of artists and labels have never made less money.
Good times for millionaire pop stars and the hobbyists who want to be heard, a bad time for all the professionals in the middle.

I don't think the Cowell thing has very much to do with real music. It's selling a dream. Also extremely manipulative.
I keep seeing X Factor teasers, while trying to watch The Ashes. The headline contestants are all misfits in the mainstream industry image. Receding hair, overweight, thick glasses, socially awkward, or even just extremely young like pre-teen.
They tease you in, selling the idea that the underdog will realise their dream against all odds. Then the eventual winner turns out to be another One Direction. The standard glamour boys in perfect harmony

[Ben M]

Just reading an article about the decline of live music in Australia. Worth adding in...

http://wheelercentre.com/dailies/post/6c8007369e51/

[The Tasmanian]

Three angry pissed off men named Chris...

I turned my TV off last November.
Not once have I turned it on - even when really tempted.
I think of it like a cigarette.
I get stuff done now.... lots of it

everything is turning to feaces ... live

[ChrisW]

Three angry pissed off men named Chris...

Verrrrry interesting article.
At the beginning of this Winter there was an interview on ABC Breakfast about live music in Australia. I think it was a research group funded by the Australia Council? Can't quite remember.
Anyway, they were based in Melbourne and claimed more people went to live music each weekend than went to AFL. They then contrasted the wages of AFL players with musicians.

From your article:
'The median income for professional musicians in Australia stands at $7,200 a year.'

Staggering, but very believable to me.

Next:
'Of the 60,000 musicians registered with APRA, only 12,500 musicians are thought to be even approaching the status of a professional praxis in music in this country today.'

Amazing.

[The Tasmanian]

Well - those stats are not that different than 15 or so years ago.
I remember the stats from back then that said - 8% of musicians in Australia made a full time living from music.
Interesting - maybe things are not so different in the full time survival stakes...
But some how I doubt the stats.
All other current scenarios seem to indicate otherwise.

[Drumstruck]

I wonder if a point of diminishing returns will be reached - where saturation = massive polulation crash in the 'industry" leaving the dregs for the surviving drospophila to resurrect.....

[ChrisW]

I'll compete to be heard against part timers all day long.
Everyone is free to take part. It's not pros vs amateurs. It's about devaluing of the product, often by entities looking to profit from music. Pirate sites are making big bucks from major corporate advertising.
As it always is, it's about money, not really about freedom, and sharing creativity etc..... hackers and pirates are making a lot more money than musicians.

[ChrisW]

Well - those stats are not that different than 15 or so years ago.
I remember the stats from back then that said - 8% of musicians in Australia made a full time living from music.

I wasn't here 15 years ago, but there's been a steady decline in the viability of a career in music in the UK and USA.
You could quite easily work in a niche genre, sell fewer albums, play smaller venues, and still survive as a full timer in the business.

[rob]

I really wonder how different it really is for musicians. I played and worked with lots of local bands in the early to late eighties. There were lots of great and interesting bands. Almost no one ever made anything approaching a living out of it. Most bands used their day jobs / dole checks to not only live off but buy instruments and put petrol in the van to get to a gig. And the little money a band could save up went to the thousands of bucks involved in renting a studio for a couple of days to record some songs. The exceptions to this where there was any significant money earnt, or a "record deal" were very rare. There has always been thousands of unknown, unearning musicians for the couple who "make it".

[The Tasmanian]

It's not pros vs amateurs. It's about devaluing of the product, often by entities looking to profit from music. Pirate sites are making big bucks from major corporate advertising.
As it always is, it's about money, not really about freedom, and sharing creativity etc..... hackers and pirates are making a lot more money than musicians.

Exactly!!!

Rob - i agree, there is so many day job workers, who are really talented artists, passionate, pro's - even though they have a day job.
Its just now they have no medium to release the music on without getting ripped off.
They can still play at the local pub, and many are happy to do that.
There are a few smaller bands I've worked with over the last few years where I encourage them to make home made CD burns to sell at shows, it can still be done creatively and look OK.
At least they can get into peoples cars and lounge rooms, and possibly have return fans to the next shows.

Really there is no such thing as policing copyright anymore, or even policing any theft on the internet.
Its a legal free for all. Wikileaks is a perfect example, and one where I think it is totally justified.
So be it.
Really nothing much we can do except refuse to partake or supply anything in digital format. That's where I'm at.

[ChrisW]

What i see missing is the next step up the ladder.
There wasn't a huge gulf between amateur and major label before. the gap was filled by smaller labels and indies. You could make a living playing smaller venues.
Perhaps not in Oz, with such a small population, and few major cities thousands of miles apart.
But don't let the local scene distort what's happening elsewhere.
I spent most of the 80's playing in niche bands, touring in backs of vans, playing to 200 to 500 people, both in UK, Europe and the USA. You could do it full time, put food on the table, and buy the gear you needed.
What i see now is you are either amateur and not really making anything, or signed to a major, doing OK. The vast middle has been cut out by no income from downloading, and paltry income from Spotify/Youtube etc...

[Kurt]

Perhaps it's more that you are 30 years older and no longer prepared to sit in a van with four other stinky dudes, eating road food and playing at pubs? I don't think the scenario you paint has ever really been the case here though, as someone mentioned, the population is too small and the distances too great.

Some friends in a punk band did something like you described in Europe a few years ago, 3 guys travelling around, borrowing amps drums etc. They didn't make any money (don't think punk bands are allowed to) but it paid for their travels around Europe.

What i see missing is the next step up the ladder.
There wasn't a huge gulf between amateur and major label before. the gap was filled by smaller labels and indies. You could make a living playing smaller venues.
Perhaps not in Oz, with such a small population, and few major cities thousands of miles apart.
But don't let the local scene distort what's happening elsewhere.
I spent most of the 80's playing in niche bands, touring in backs of vans, playing to 200 to 500 people, both in UK, Europe and the USA. You could do it full time, put food on the table, and buy the gear you needed.
What i see now is you are either amateur and not really making anything, or signed to a major, doing OK. The vast middle has been cut out by no income from downloading, and paltry income from Spotify/Youtube etc...

[The Tasmanian]

This whole topic, even though I started it as a hopeful discussion amongst us all, is depressing me no end and cementing my move out - I would stop today if I didnt have 1/2 doz albums ahead of me.

Why bother? why bother hoping, even thinking about it? Its not going to improve anytime.
Its a hobby industry, a very expensive one, living in hope that some miracle will happen and people will value what we do. Its just not going to happen - ever.

Thankfully I still can make a living from music, way outside of this industry - but I want nothing more to do with albums/singles/film/TV etc.

I'll leave this all to the hobbyists to fight for the last crumbs, with their bewinger tools, whilst their clients get perpetually ripped off, and 90% of the public all around the world listen to stolen music, in crap MP3 formats, on Logitech $80 sound systems. Or $250 quality "surround" systems

Ive got nothing more to add here...
except for lots of gear to sell.

Thanks for the discussion,
Time to move on.
Amen.

[ChrisW]

Perhaps it's more that you are 30 years older and no longer prepared to sit in a van with four other stinky dudes, eating road food and playing at pubs?

Has nothing to do with the point I made. My point is that you could earn enough to survive doing that in the 80's. But it's harder if not impossible now. I did a no-budget tour for two months around America in 2008. So I don't think I'm that adrift with reality.

They didn't make any money (don't think punk bands are allowed to) but it paid for their travels around Europe.

I made money working with The Waterboys and Julian Cope in the 80's.

[Drumstruck]

..... whilst their clients get perpetually ripped off, and 90% of the public all around the world listen to stolen music, in crap MP3 formats, on Logitech $80 sound systems. Or $250 quality "surround" systems

imo if we replace "mp3" with "cassette" and "nnn sound systems" with "Realistic...." we rewind back to the 70s and the same commenting from the industry was happening then (I don't mean to sound insulting Chris).

The distribution channel is the major difference - download at line speed vs record from the radio/record player in real time - piracy is / piracy was.

However, talent like yourself (Chris) and the other members here is very hard to replace - the pool may be reduced but I doubt it will disappear.

Eno criticised Ptools a while back - and I tend to agree with him if the topic is quantising and pitch correction - but he may have forgotten the very unlevel playing field that existed for the few who had access to Neve desks / Ampex 24 tracks etc etc back in the day......

The times they are a-changin' - now where have I heard that before?

[The Tasmanian]

But Ian, you are only looking at a few aspects, and drawing parallels with the past.
Sure the equipment was not great back then (but a hell of a lot better than now)

The point is - the equipment is crap, PLUS no-body values the work anymore, AND its stolen and freely given away to anyone connected to the internet.
No guilt of theft whatsoever.

Sure - people used cassettes, but even they cost a few $ to buy blank.
No-one sat around after purchasing 50,000 cassettes ($50k?) and then copied each one over a few years, then went to the post office and paid to mail the cassettes all over the world.

There is a radical difference between then and now.
Now nearly everyone is a thief, with no regard for the artform, the cost to make the artform, and the dedication everyone from the artist through to the studio/engineer/producer/masterers have put their life behind.

I see it as a huge difference.