What's happening to the recording industry? and its future?

[Kurt]

Well, while you sit around lamenting what happened a generation ago, I'll keep making my living out of the music industry. So things have changed, there are still plenty of young guys loading their shit into vans every weekend and going out to play music. Perhaps there's less money around but the fact that some (most?) of the people on this forum have enough work to survive proves it's still there.

My point is that you could earn enough to survive doing that in the 80's

[The Tasmanian]

And you miss the whole point that our work is stolen.
by thieves.

People will play gigs/lug etc - they always have and always will.
its irrelevant to this discussion

But how would you feel going to work for nothing at a day job?
Or - getting your wages stolen before you've even been paid?
That's the scenario.
You need to add ALL of the situations together - not look at one aspect.
When you add it all up - a garbage man is honored more than a musician.
At least he gets paid for his "craft"

[Kurt]

Most garbagemen have been put out of work by the new automated trucks, change affects every industry.

Young bands are still paying to go to studios and record. They still pay session guys to play drums for them (I am waiting for drum tracks to get delivered for an album as we speak)

And you miss the whole point that our work is stolen.
by thieves.

People will play gigs/lug etc - they always have and always will.
its irrelevant to this discussion

But how would you feel going to work for nothing at a day job?
Or - getting your wages stolen before you've even been paid?
That's the scenario.
You need to add ALL of the situations together - not look at one aspect.
When you add it all up - a garbage man is honored more than a musician.
At least he gets paid for his "craft"

[ChrisW]

Most garbagemen have been put out of work by the new automated trucks, change affects every industry.

We haven't been innovated out of music though. The product was garbage pick up, not garbagemen.
Sure, with machinery you can replace all but one garbageman, but if the music requires vocalist, guitar, bass and drums, you still need four people.

Young bands are still paying to go to studios and record. They still pay session guys to play drums for them (I am waiting for drum tracks to get delivered for an album as we speak)

From what I both see and hear that's not the case.
Studios closing yearly. Lot's of session guys not doing sessions, but teaching, promoting products, working on music for tv..... everything but playing on albums.
The Aussie session guys I know are doing reality tv, and cover band tours, not making many original albums.

[Drumstruck]

But Ian, you are only looking at a few aspects, and drawing parallels with the past.
Sure the equipment was not great back then (but a hell of a lot better than now)

The point is - the equipment is crap, PLUS no-body values the work anymore, AND its stolen and freely given away to anyone connected to the internet.
No guilt of theft whatsoever.

Sure - people used cassettes, but even they cost a few $ to buy blank.
No-one sat around after purchasing 50,000 cassettes ($50k?) and then copied each one over a few years, then went to the post office and paid to mail the cassettes all over the world.

There is a radical difference between then and now.
Now nearly everyone is a thief, with no regard for the artform, the cost to make the artform, and the dedication everyone from the artist through to the studio/engineer/producer/masterers have put their life behind.

I see it as a huge difference.

Yes, I am drawing parallels to the past - I guess that's a sign of age (or should I be politically correct and say experience...).

You are indeed right about distribution of cassettes - that was an implication in my comment about online "distribution" - so, sorry, I should eloquate a bit more . The 'net is the big, bad wolf in this - and strangely, whilst NBN will help in some collaborative ways it will allow easier piracy too - the two edged sword.

The stealing part is quite right - I'd say people today are more street-smart in this and perhaps that innocent honesty we saw in the 60s is really dead and gone - but with the role models we have on show in the media (politicians, miners, lawyers etc) we'd be a damn fool to do any different (to paraphrase Heller without paying him royalties)....

For me it's an irony that a reasonably good little studio is affordable nowadays, the target market has grown exponentially, and the income potential has shrunk by the inverse factor. I knew all those glibly learned phrases in maths and commerce would be useful one day.....

If enhanced security won't help, because for every technical locksmith there's a technical safecracker..... it's probably just as well that every possible combination of notes and beats has already been done (curse you Bach) - is this another reason that music's value has declined? i.e. we've heard it all before..... how sad....

Bring on virtual reality and direct injection of sound into the brain - no? no!

[The Tasmanian]

Kurt - it seems like you reside in a microcosm of the industry.
There is a huge industry out there , every style you can think of, every professional.

I don't see lamenting the past here - I see the only way to describe the current situation is to look back > reflect on the whole history of musicians/recorded music/markets/labels/ what else can we do?

Ive survived from the industry pretty much my whole life, and I see a completely different world to you.
I work with the smallest bands to the absolute top artists.
I talk to the labels, managers, radio stations, session guys, engineers, producers, studio owners, publishers , venue owners, bookers, festival organizers - the lot.
All of them right across the country and all over the world are saying the opposite to you.

Just because you (and I) are surviving now, does not mean everything is fine.
We are all one or 2 jobs away from going under - like a wage earner that is one or 2 paypackets from going under.

Careful of over confidence, and complacency it can come back and bight your wallet at any instant.
One thing I know about this industry is to never take my situation for granted.
Its always changing , including artists wanting/or being able to afford to work with us.
No money - they aint hiring us.

I also know multiple million selling artists really struggling, I know bands and songwriters constantly touring the world with 1/2 million sales struggling to even pay their rent back home.
Driving cabs when they get back to town....
I know popular killer bands touring the world (right now) for food.
Because no-one is buying recorded music, yet they play to packed venues all over the globe.
The cost of touring/fuel etc is rising - the fees are going down, less people can afford to go to shows.

So are all of the bands, song writers and session players you work with working full time in the industry?
Or is it you working full time, while they desperately try to scramble money together to record, (via day jobs) and then have their intellectual property stolen

I know of NO-ONE who is surviving doing album sessions.
Zilch.

Lets project forward a touch in this industry - would you be happy to not be paid for your work/skills?
That's the way it is going.
It will only take another hiccup like the GFC Mk III, and you (and I) will be on the begging heap.

Or - maybe your skills will easily be replaced by an Iphone7 app soon ?
Most probable outcome too the way things are going.

[Kurt]

Of course I reside in a microcosm, we all do.

I put it to you that if people are selling half a million records, touring full time and a struggling, they are getting fucked by the industry, not in spite of it.

I survived a heart attack a few weeks ago, it may have given me a bit of an optimism boost.

Kurt - it seems like you reside in a microcosm of the industry.
There is a huge industry out there , every style you can think of, every professional.

I don't see lamenting the past here - I see the only way to describe the current situation is to look back > reflect on the whole history of musicians/recorded music/markets/labels/ what else can we do?

Ive survived from the industry pretty much my whole life, and I see a completely different world to you.
I work with the smallest bands to the absolute top artists.
I talk to the labels, managers, radio stations, session guys, engineers, producers, studio owners, publishers , venue owners, bookers, festival organizers - the lot.
All of them right across the country and all over the world are saying the opposite to you.

Just because you (and I) are surviving now, does not mean everything is fine.
We are all one or 2 jobs away from going under - like a wage earner that is one or 2 paypackets from going under.

Careful of over confidence, and complacency it can come back and bight your wallet at any instant.
One thing I know about this industry is to never take my situation for granted.
Its always changing , including artists wanting/or being able to afford to work with us.
No money - they aint hiring us.

I also know multiple million selling artists really struggling, I know bands and songwriters constantly touring the world with 1/2 million sales struggling to even pay their rent back home.
Driving cabs when they get back to town....
I know popular killer bands touring the world (right now) for food.
Because no-one is buying recorded music, yet they play to packed venues all over the globe.
The cost of touring/fuel etc is rising - the fees are going down, less people can afford to go to shows.

So are all of the bands, song writers and session players you work with working full time in the industry?
Or is it you working full time, while they desperately try to scramble money together to record, (via day jobs) and then have their intellectual property stolen

I know of NO-ONE who is surviving doing album sessions.
Zilch.

Lets project forward a touch in this industry - would you be happy to not be paid for your work/skills?
That's the way it is going.
It will only take another hiccup like the GFC Mk III, and you (and I) will be on the begging heap.

Or - maybe your skills will easily be replaced by an Iphone7 app soon ?
Most probable outcome too the way things are going.

[ChrisW]

Of course I reside in a microcosm, we all do.

I put it to you that if people are selling half a million records, touring full time and a struggling, they are getting fucked by the industry, not in spite of it.

The point is, many fewer people ARE selling half a million albums, and the touring scene is clogged with Pink and Fleetwood Mac.
Who can afford to tour 'full time' any more. If you're Aussie, you can play the major cities, then you can't go back for months because who wants to see you twice in a few months? If you tour overseas, you have to get the band, and the equipment there. It's expensive.
The couple of people I know who are doing truly well in the current climate are DJ's. they travel alone. Their whole gig is on a laptop, and to add insult to injury, their fees are far in excess of anything a band would earn for one show.

[Drumstruck]

and the way f/mac tickets sold there's no shortage of money in that audience's pocket - at $600 a ticket someone is making money.

We went to see them the last 3 tours, thinking that "this will be the last time we ever see them......" - perhaps next time it will be in wheelchairs?

[rick]

I have been watching people retire hurt from this business
As long as I have been in it
Locally a small population and big distances
Have always crippled our business
And yet every time somebody retired hurt
For real experienced life reasons
10 new seem to pop up and grapple for the same
Territory

The difference I see is in the populated .. Geographically
Non challenged markets like Europe and the us
The local guys are retiring hurt or soon will
Citing all the reasons Chris and Chris are so clearly
Stating .. I have a bunch of friends moving to other work areas outside music
And sound .
But for some of my ( local) mates and not particularly for me
It seems these are the GOOD old days !
So I think this whole she bang needs perspective as much as deep thought

Australia has always been a hard place to do lots of things
We adapt .. We get better results on no budget big distances then most places
Aussie spirit and no how and all that
and we are therefore Represented in a much higher way on the world stage then our population
Would ever suggest.

So do I think the business is fucked ?
Yes .. I think it always was locally
And I think in the small Internet world we live
In its easy to forgot who and where we are in the big picture

We live a long way from the money making markets always will

Some of us further south are even further away but the nbn
Is getting turned on to fix that .


Learn .. adapt .. All that stuff
None of us live Afghanistan

I suffer from the copyright revenue as much as anybody and more
Then most on this forum because my daily bread
Is straight from the banks ( record labels ) historically
Not so much any more and I can feel it .
It's real but so what

But I do think nobody is going to rally around the " it's fucked
Boat .. Lets fix it if we can " ..Chris T .

Too many people in the water waiting for the chance
To have their own go to learn its fucked for themselves
To get a chance to change things on their own terms .

We all have to learn how it works or doesn't for ourselves
For some reason .. Logic and co- operating isn't a strong
Point in this business .. Narcassist behaviour is !
For every Mother Earth type music maker we all love
And admire the are a bunch more narcassist pricks kicking the can

Music TV is full of them .. And overachieving well paid
Ones at that !

I kinda think it really is a good time in the big picture
As I cannot imagine it being too much worse
And we do have the good / ok economy compared to the
Rest of the others in the music market .

From the top you drop
From the bottom you rise .

Lots of heads floating around in the water

Give your mate a hand in the boat if you can
And remember those that helped you.
Remember for decades ..

I feel the huge absence of the guys that didnt help me
And I feel no loss for them .. f@#$ em .

[The Tasmanian]

Well > as long as the engineers/studios/producers/mastering guys get paid that's all that matters.
There are plenty of enthusiastic guys moving in.
I'll bet they live in shared households - no children to support, no mortgage, no responsibilities.
When these other elements do arrive - they will be gone in a flash.

Everyone gets paid for their work in making an album...
Except - the artist goes into the studio and through the whole process does not get paid - including writing the work, practicing, recording, mixing,mastering, making videos etc.

The artist works for nothing, then has their work blatantly stolen.
Sound fair?
That is the crux of the situation.

So yep - the industry is shockingly unfair to the artist - the one that feeds the whole gamut of workers waiting with their hands out to be paid.
Sadly, the recording industry is not far off being pimps when the artist cannot make any money from recording their work , and Its stolen and handed out to anyone who wants it.
Tragic situation.

I'm 100% for the Artists - without them, none of us would be here, neither would this forum.

[ChrisW]

+100

[rick]

+ 101 mostly
cept for the narcassistic pratts
The world doesn't know it
but we can do with out
The music they make
...Mostly

[rick]

Btw Just to keep the boat straight Chris
I know plenty ( some ) of musos that get paid to work on
Their own records From start to finish .
But it can easily be hidden in " other payments"
But you know that .
But mostly none do ..

Mostly none around me ever did .

When I was signed to a major ( well mushroom )nobody ever paid me anything
Cept the advance to pay the lawyer who got paid 8 k
To read and get me to sign the contracts
Which always made me laugh ..
I work for years and get nothing for my brief failed no show of a career
He reads some papers and gets two months wages ! In a day or two

[gigpiglet]

i am 100% for the artist too.
which is why i started a label.
it was an artist friendly/ industry real enough deal, that i got a few phone calls from a few majors questioning my intentions..
as it turns out, none of my artists have "hit the big time" so the label hasnt been noticed.
for the record/ out of interest - i believe that label was also the first carbon neutral record label in the world (certainly the only one i could find) just cause i wanted it to be.

"these could be the good old days" to quote E from the eels.

or you know... talk me down about not seeing your point.
thats cool too.

ill just run my cool little artist and eco friendly label
and own my cool little studio.
and have a good time.

[The Tasmanian]

Hats off to you Gareth,
at least you are putting your time into the artists you believe in, time you may or may not get a financial return on. Because you believe in the artist and their talent and music.
Sharing the risk - sharing the spoils!

Rick - lawyers make my blood boil - and so does not going to them and being ripped off....
Cant win in that department.

[rick]

I can't even comment on lawyers right now with my life as it stands
Chris
But I a pretty sure they are the only professional
That contributes so little and takes so much

Arhh f@#$ it
f@#$ them too !

[Ben M]

Who killed the music industry?
http://pandodaily.com/2013/08/05/who-ki ... explainer/

Some light reading for the breakfast table this morning.

[ChrisW]

Firstly the article is wrong in at least one respect. Why oh why does the debate HAVE to be so US-centric.
Radio DOES pay performance royalties, just not American radio. Australian radio pays performance royalties, as does the UK, Europe.
The nations that do not pay performance royalties from broadcast are - USA....... Chine, North Korea and Iran!

SEcond, the debate is always based on 'bands'.
This is where the selling t-shirts and touring thing always comes in.
Releasing a record is great promo for your band.
OK, well my latest record is a work centred around drums, the Sydney Symphony and Mongolian throat singers (perhaps).
I don't think we're going to be playing The Basement next month.
That doesn't make the album a lesser work. I was passionate about the music and invested huge amounts in bringing the work to the public. I just can't pay for it with the t-shirt and the world tour. So, most likely the album wont get made. That's a net loss to the public, fixated on free or unsustainably cheap music.

[The Tasmanian]

Thanks Ben - that's an awesome (horribly revealing ) site.
Having my coffee - aaahhhh!!!!

First fact that made my blood boil:

How do artists get paid from iTunes?

the songwriter gets $0.09 per song,!!!!!!!

while the payment to the performing artist is negotiated between the label and artist (15-to-20 percent is still an industry standard).

[ChrisW]

While 15-20% might be the industry standard, I don't know if signing to a mainstream label is industry standard any more.
Many people are self-releasing, many more are signing with small indies and digital labels.
In the old days you'd bite on 20% in order to access a big advance, plus get the intro to a top producer, then a mixer. Access worldwide radio pluggers, local promo, and an A&R team hopefully fighting your case.
These days small labels are offering very little.
You get no advance. They don't have employees scattered around the globe.
Often people sign a 50/50 deal.
You make your album, take care of your own touring and promo. the label puts out the album, and you share any income 50/50.

[The Tasmanian]

Chris W - that is exactly where I am coming from, and have been for many years now.
I want to do BIG works, not put together a 5 piece band and tour.
Ive done it all over the world, I enjoy it - in fact I love it!

The last EU tour I did needed $30k EU sponsorship just to accommodate the line up I wanted - concert harp, etc, huge live set-up, 14 seater bus to take the gear, accomm etc.
The work I want to do is utterly impossible to tour without huge amounts of financial backing.
So I wont.

Sometimes i feel like a painter being forced to do all of their work on a postcard size canvass, because the postal system will only allow that size. You want to do a 20cm x 20cm work? - go and get hundreds of thousands of $ to do it!

Isnt it utterly stupid that we have to consider selling clothes as the only way to make our money back - because the music is worthless....a T shirt is the holy grail of survival, it makes or breaks a tour !!!

I want nothing to do with digital formats with my work.
The work i have in Mona will never be mixed into a digital format - not even a demo for other galleries / for future work - which I have been asked to supply - I refuse.
I give them reviews/photos etc.

Chris - I hope you do get to realize that work with the SSO - I'll be there.
It sounds awesome!!

[ChrisW]

I think my bottomline point is that a recording is a 'work' in it's own right.
It isn't a promo. It isn't a loss leader.
I'll never see The Jimi Hendrix Experience, but I can enjoy Electric Ladyland any time I like.
Bohemian Rhapsody the record, Bohemian Rhapsody live - two completely different things.
I don't 'get' why one is worth paying for, the other is worthless?

[Drumstruck]

the phrase "poor struggling artist" isn't new - Dostoevsky died a beggar, Woody Guthrie died in poverty etc etc....

Shakespeare said (quoted) "the first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers" in the 1500s....

Mozart et al had to sell their souls to the royals to fund their careers.....

but it appears that Andre Rieu is still making moola from live and recorded extravaganzas

and vocoded boybands seem to do well - are there any pretty boys on t'rock? perhaps we should start a boy band using their faces to fund the rest of us? wouldn't that be an over-engineered / over-produced / over-mastered piece of umm errr ummm


I took a different perspective last night - just went and played drums (alone) for no other reason than they sound great - today I'm smiling

[The Tasmanian]

Your right Ian
Make art - not war...
Ive got to remember that each day, cause i'm never gonna win the "artist should be paid" war.
The thieves have won.

[ChrisW]

This is another perennial point though.
Being an artist sucked in the 1890's, or in the 1930's.
Sure.
Playing cricket for Australia sucked in the 1930's. Six months away from work and family, to play The Ashes in the UK for virtually no money. Try asking Michael Clarke to go back to that. Michael Clarke has entertained the same amount of people as Midnight Oil, probably less. So what makes him more valuable?
We moved forward. We evolved. We realised we valued creativity - thru the 60's, 70's and 80's..
We don't want to go back to the bad old days.

[Drumstruck]

Clarke is doing a wonderful job of entertaining the english And on the poms - I have been very impressed with their "honour" lately - I've seen a number of them walk without looking at the umpire - perhaps this can help bring back the gentlemanlyness of the game that has been so lacking in the sledging era?

back on topic - it is a shame to see the bad old days returning Chris - and I also lament the lack of creativity that was so prevalent in the 60s / 70s

[Drumstruck]

A lateral note on the industry and the old favourite topic - the loudness war....

I just purchased (yes, purchased) Chris Squire's "Fish Out of Water" - the remastered CD / DVD package. The clarity is excellent, but shame-o-shame - compressed to the sh**house, over-loud and even has some digital peaks

[rick]

Hey Chris T

With your install music can't be copied won't allow it
To be captured on digital work .. Say the Mona
Stuff ..

How perzactly does the commerce work for you ?


Are you commissioned by the institution
Paid a flat fee .. Which they somehow recoup
Over ticket sales ..?

Or is there a royalty or sale of artwork system going on ?

Or is a a loss leader for the great good type of deal ?

I have many " artists" friends some very well known and respected
who are commission to do public works
By " benefactors " and its the only way they can survive


Others that work within the world of commerce and do
Installs in buildings , homes and public places for commission after commission


One such friend had a commission for sculptures by the sea
By I think blue scope steel .. Make something topical .. Current
Use our steel .. Etc etc
And after the exhibition like most commussions she was
allowed to sell On the work
She sold her very large sculpture from
Sculpture by the sea after it was transported to Perth
She told me at the time it was bought by a serious
Collection fine art co op (monastry of monks church group )
for more then she thought she would get so all good

Last month I sent her a photo of her " art " installed
In the carpark at the northbridge macdonalds ..!
Which she says is just laughable ..
But At least it's still seen she mused .

How does the commerce work in your case
Or is it just a altruistic lot of art for art sake
( which I certainly think is a great thing for all humans to be involved in )

[rick]

Omg
By Lucy Vader .. In its newfound "placed" home
Outside macdonalds in northbridge in Perth


This piece .. A couple of years after it was made
Is counterfeited all over the world ( and was immediately after she made it )
It may look familar to you
You probably have seen a copy ( or hopefully the real thing )

It feels like the music problem to me ?