Inevitable

[The Tasmanian]

ChrisO "
As an aside............ creativity, at it's core is a very personal thing.........the question is whether a person wants or needs to prostitute that talent or treasure it as a personal pleasure"

ChrisO - Ahh - I don't get the prostitution reference - it makes no sense to me.
Unless it makes you uncomfortable that I talk about creativity?

and your quote seems really odd in a forum based on music - which if we followed your above quote - no-one would ever make music, art for the public,films,poetry,sing etc.
I'm confused as to what your getting at.
can you elaborate?

[Ausrock]

Apologies to ChrisW for keeping this thread "off track".

Over the years, when someone becomes aware of my guitar playing and/or painting and drawing skills I'm invariably asked why on earth I haven't been out gigging or exhibiting and selling my art I usually respond by saying that I've never wanted to prostitue myself, that I enjoy those creative skills for what they not for what I can make (in monetary terms) from them.

On the other hand, my abilities in design and to work/create precisely with my hands are something I have prostituted and continue to do so.

So I think my point was that some abilities/talents hold a very personal value while we are prepared to use others in a much more open way. I genuinely admire your self re-evaluaton and the decisions you've made and wish you all the best in the future.If I've been succesful, there's two pics attached..........one a pencil sketch that normally doesn't get shared, the other is from the skill sets that I have "prostituted".

Pics removed.........if you haven't seen them by now, well it doesn't matter

[rightintheface]

I might be off here, but what I think ChrisO is getting at is that some people *need* to be making money (or something) from their creativity, whereas others are just happy to *be* creative - regardless off the monetary opportunities available. Some people, and bands etc, end up "whoring out" their products, like giving away free downloads etc as has been mentioned, while others won't do that. And I guess that's a very personal thing. I know I've been in bands where we've given up trying to sell CD's at shows so ended up giving them away. same with people here that have done free sessions for bands/friends in the hope of getting future bookings. Some people are willing to do it, some are not. I don't think it's a thing of one is better than the other, but like ChrisO said its a personal choice.

In the end I think probably all of us would still be working in music - even if it was for free - because it's what we all love to do. We all get off on finding the right pocket of air to mic up, dropping in a perfect seamless edit, coming up with a bitching guitar line etc. it's probably why a lot of us get out of bed in the morning, or stay up in bed widdling away on their iPhone learning new mic techniques or researching famous engineers or reading interviews with favourite songwriters. And some of us are in a position to get payed for it, most probably aren't. Either way, we're all still here and passionate about it. Viva la musica

[rightintheface]

Oops sorry Chris missed your post!

[Manning]

Over the years, when someone becomes aware of my guitar playing and/or painting and drawing skills I'm invariably asked why on earth I haven't been out gigging or exhibiting and selling my art I usually respond by saying that I've never wanted to prostitute myself, that I enjoy those creative skills for what they not for what I can make (in monetary terms) from them.

In 1994, after spending eight consecutive years on the road as a guitarist, I found myself in the house band in the Pink Flamingo in Vegas, playing "I will Always Love you" behind a girl in a sequined gown.

That was when I had my epiphany - this was NOT my rock and roll dream. Granted I had some amazingly satisfying times as a working guitarist, but too much of my life was being spent chasing survival dollars, rather than pursuing my art.

So I walked away, came back to Oz, got into software design and now earn enough money to build myself a nice little studio and go wherever the music takes me.

So as for the earlier "professional/amateur" debate - I don't know what I am. I have over 2400 paid live performances under my belt, which is a decent number by any standard. But I currently earn zero income from music.

And I'm the happiest with my music that I have ever been. Ultimately that is what matters I guess.

[The Tasmanian]

But ChrisO - and Mitch - isnt life supposed to be creative?
business is a creative endeavour , building a house, having children, bringing them up to be great people, I think everything we do comes from creativity.

Prostitution is an ugly harsh word to describe what we do.
If we follow that line of thinking - then working is prostituting, everything we do is prostituting unless we choose not to live in society. Telling someone what we think is prostitution of our ideas and thoughts.
To continue this line of thinking further - then every single musician and artist I have ever met is a prostitute.
I cant look at life that way.

To me we are all creative individuals, for eg: I really love gardening, growing trees from seeds that feed honey eater birds and bees etc, its a little side joy that I do, keeps me fit, outdoors, etc, and I dont tell many people about it here, not because it would be prostituting what I love to do - its just not really relevant here.

But creativity is what our whole industry is based on - without it we have nothing.
I'm not going to put prostitute on my business card!

[Chris H]

The last two posts, by ChrisO and Manning are great personal examples of how we each find our way forward with our art. There is the aspect that is a deeply personal form of self expression. Then there is the part of our creativity that is more directed by commercial application. Both have our own individual finger print. We all know of the examples where the commercial directives have obliterated any remnant of artistic credibility.
In the mid 70's I was invited by some music industry insiders to join a band they were putting together. I can still see myself sitting in that Richmond office hearing him list the benefits I would get from being in a band that was going to be commercially successful but a band that I had little or no artistic input apart from my ability to play the guitar and look the part. After his spiel I said to him it was not for me as I valued my musical integrity too much to be a part of....in my mind I said "his bullshit world" but I forget the actual words I used.
Looking back over the following few years I know I possibly could have used that situation as a platform for a career after the band, but the stigma such bands leave on their members is hard to remove and is likely to leave a stain on the canvas of future artistic pursuits. I also played in a wedding reception band that gigged every week and the money was great but I had to leave to keep the music in me alive. The original and pub bands I played in was for minimal financial reward but It nourished me in other ways. I think many of us have lived through similar situations as we oscillate between the financial return and keeping our artistic integrity intact.

[Wiz]

I understand the "stage epiphany" (and I was in vegas too in 94 8) )I have had that a couple of times
and taken an extended break.

This time around, due to the shoulder issue, its been a chance to reset.

I feel extremely "mortal and finite" at the moment. Having something wear out in my body, made me feel like a machine wearing out. For the first time in my life, something has worn/aged and will never be the same again................ other than my hair going grey.

Having health issues, sure makes you sort out those people who care about you from the rest. It has also cleared my mind in that I am certain now, that time is precious, money fleeting, possessions worth only what they give you in joy when you use them. Love is important. Time is everything.

I intend, when functional again, to guard my time, but give it freely to those who will appreciate it, as I appreciate the time been given to me by others. I also, intend for the first time since becoming a professional musician.. to make music purely on my own terms. To play only with players I want to play with, regardless of their ability, to have people in my life I care about.


Being unable to play for so long, has been no mixed blessing, it has sucked monkey balls, but I do value the fact that it seems to have given me clarity. At least for the moment.

The other day, for the first time I said "no thankyou, i have no interest in doing that, it would consume to much of my time"

I will be doing more of that.

Also, more of this

"sure, i would love to be involved in this...... "

[rightintheface]

Maybe "prostitute" wasn't the right term, just the principle that matters - some people will go to further lengths to make some money. Like I said, I think the crew floating around here fall into the other category - ones that are here because we love it. Same with life, not jut music.

I had a similar experience at 18, a manager approached the band I was in with promises of success, he had all the right contacts everywhere. Set up a meeting in a local pub and said he wanted to push us to great heights, but we needed to change our songwriting a little bit, if I may paraphrase: "Mitch, you know how bands - like Nickelback for example - write a bunch of heavy songs and then eventually release really popular commercial ballads? If we can just take your songwriting and fast forward it to that stage we can really make it happen together..."

That's the quickest I've ever drunk a beer and left a pub...

[Manning]

... but we needed to change our songwriting a little bit, if I may paraphrase: "Mitch, you know how bands - like Nickelback for example - write a bunch of heavy songs and then eventually release really popular commercial ballads? If we can just take your songwriting and fast forward it to that stage we can really make it happen together..."

That's the quickest I've ever drunk a beer and left a pub...

My version of that story was at Club Facade in Miami in 1991. He wanted us to add a rapper and us all to wear "Hammer pants".

[Chris H]

Here is the dictionary definition of the word as used by ChrisO' to prostitute ones creativity.
"One who sells one's abilities, talent, or name for an unworthy purpose."

.....unworthy, like beauty, can be in the eye of the beholder.

[The Tasmanian]

All good valid points here,
we all (hopefully) have those moments in life where we stop and say - what am I doing?
And its all relevant to the individual.

I'm walking away from a full time successful career in the music industry, doing what I love, to do something I love even more. We must reinvent ourselves and refine what we do - like Manning and Chris did, they were living the dream others would envy - only to realize that there is a higher creative goal to shoot for - more potent, more fulfilling.
Even as in Manning's case, he gets a day job, so that he can survive and do what he loves with music on his terms. That is to be really admired.
Its not dissimilar to me - even though I had a enviable full time profession producing albums, it became time to take it to the next level. I fought it for a long time - but the artist in me won the confusing battle.

Now I would be happy to get a part time job so that I can realize a much more creative existence, and I'm happy to trade some of my time for that. luckily for me I don't at this point in life - but who knows what the future brings - I'll wash dishes part time - no question.

We also must be proud of our creativity, use it as a potent force in the world, be proud to make money from it.
not see it from the prism of prostitution vs personal creativity. Its not a healthy way to look at it.

[Wiz]

... but we needed to change our songwriting a little bit, if I may paraphrase: "Mitch, you know how bands - like Nickelback for example - write a bunch of heavy songs and then eventually release really popular commercial ballads? If we can just take your songwriting and fast forward it to that stage we can really make it happen together..."

That's the quickest I've ever drunk a beer and left a pub...

My version of that story was at Club Facade in Miami in 1991. He wanted us to add a rapper and us all to wear "Hammer pants".

you cant touch that

[The Tasmanian]

Geez there is a lot of Chris' here!!!

[Drumstruck]

Geez there is a lot of Chris' here!!!

That's what I was thinking too.

Was there a thing in the vocational guidance evaluation that said: name = Chris, ok you'll be a recording engineer?

I can remember them asking if I could pay attention long enough to face the lollipop the right way.............

[Ausrock]

I thank those who have managed to interpret what I meant and word it much better than I was able to.

And I thank ChrisT for hangin' around to participate in the discussion........keep it up mate

[Vic]

All I would like to add to this conversation is that I think that self evaluation, realisation and re-imagining of ourselves should be a continual process.

Apart from that, as someone who has travelled in the opposite direction, having enjoyed a healthy self sustaining career as an installation artist making work on my own terms for several years in Australia, I am now enjoying building myself an acoustically designed studio for recording. So Chris's realisations are great for me at the moment too as I am enjoying him selling gear, the Retro STA Level has arrived and is now installed in the studio and tomorrow I will past my first piece of audio into it which is a recording I made from a "prepared car trailer" that I built last week. Having read this thread, I thinks it's a fitting first use I look forward to hearing about your future endeavors Chris T.

Screen Shot 2013-08-17 at 6.53.17 PM.png

Vic.

[Ben M]

the Retro STA Level has arrived and is now installed in the studio and tomorrow I will past my first piece of audio into it

Vic, don't be concerned about driving plenty of input into the STA Level...if you're seeing -25db gain reduction that's very normal and right where the sweet spot is. . You're going to love it.

[Vic]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the info, that's good to know. I've been kept indoors with a flu of some type so didn't make it out to the studio today as I want to have my first run with the STA LEVEL when I'm 100% strong enough to feel its power

Vic

[rob]

Some of my best friends are prostitutes.

[Lee]

Some of my best friends are prostitutes.

That sounds like a song title.

[rob]

An interesting fact:
"If you yelled for 8 years, 7 months and 6 days, you would have produced enough sound energy to heat one cup of coffee"

[The Tasmanian]

Some peoples relationships could do that in half the time..

[Drumstruck]

my day job stress level keeps the coffee percolating in the cup sitting beside me

[ether]

Had to not read these posts for a while as they we're gettin' me agitated. Went and played with the modular instead.

Good to see some humour returning though.

This may be encouraging to some:

hooray.png

[graemeh]

I've been following these interesting threads for days now and never had time to respond.

I'd like to thank everyone for their most intelligent, passionate, sincere, caring, responsible posts.

I cannot add to the discussion without repeating what had already been better said.

It's been a privilege to read this heart-felt and personal material and I count myself very fortunate to be a member of this fantastic forum!

Thank you rick!

...for those who remember Kurt Vonnegut - "Poo-tee-wit"...