Two buck shops

[Mitch Kenny]

I hear mark does a great brown eyed girl

[rob]

I too have travelled down the pennisula a couple of times...but usually to help Mark lug his SSL around, which is always a damn good thing to do.
However, undoubtably i need my head read....who would be a tech in this day and age?

I've enjoyed this discussion and the thought that pops into my head ( bearing in my mind Mitch's opinion of where it's at ) is how does the studio charging "$8 / hour" afford to get it's gear fixed?

See, i want to make a living too and maybe one day be able to even afford to take the long suffering missus on a holiday.

[Linear]

I've enjoyed this discussion and the thought that pops into my head ( bearing in my mind Mitch's opinion of where it's at ) is how does the studio charging "$8 / hour" afford to get it's gear fixed?

It doesn't. In an $8/hour shop, when the gear breaks you throw it out and replace it. You can't really fix that sort of equipment.

More often than not, the stuff will be cheaper than when you bought it anyway - I'm still amazed at how the Chinese can make stuff so cheaply.

For what I paid for 5 longframe TRS connectors (made in Liechtenstein) I can buy a crap compressor made in China.

Chris

[Kris]

ummm.... what makes you think the "8 buck shops" have crap gear?

I have a Wagner U47 and a Focusrite Red 6 amongst other bits and bobs. It doesn't read like a major studio's gear list but it's good quality.

There are some seriously sweeping generalisations being made here.

[Linear]

There are some seriously sweeping generalisations being made here.

sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internot really, does it?

i meant it quite tongue-in-cheek. it was more a poke at cheap stuff being completely unrepairable and the fact that if you run a semi-serious shop, you need to either a) fix gear yourself or b) charge enough to pay someone to fix your gear.

if you run a shop full of sinosumer stuff, then when it breaks (like a $99 DVD player) you replace it.

Chris

[SoundSnob]

These are a few wise quotes.i hope they are usefull and relevant
-"A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business."

-"A business absolutely devoted to service will have only one worry about profits. They will be embarrassingly large."

-"A market is never saturated with a good product, but it is very quickly saturated with a bad one."

-"Business is never so healthy as when, like a chicken, it must do a certain amount of scratching around for what it gets."

-"Quality means doing it right when no one is looking."

-"Competition is the keen cutting edge of business, always shaving away at costs."

-"There is joy in work. There is no happiness except in the realization that we have accomplished something."

-"You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do."

-"Time and money spent in helping others to do more for themselves is far better than mere giving."

-"Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it."

-"The competitor to be feared is one who never bothers about you at all, but goes on making his own business better all the time."

-"There is one rule for the industrialist and that is:Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible.
HAPPY NEW YEAR

[michael]

Don't you think the market is still big enough for everyone?

Along side the big rooms, (exxxy gear, 2" tape, producers, weeks to record an album. Big money). and, solid little studios, (good gear, great experience. Great albums of all different deadlines/budgets). There have always been enthusiasts recording demos and midfi albums on a weekend at super budget rates, and home guys crafting their own stuff with anything from 8track r + r's to casette.

Really how much has changed? yeah technology has made the buy in to setup a modern facility a fair bit cheaper and maybe this makes the home guys less lofi and also brings the enthusiasts up from demo level to compete with the traditional small to mid size solid studio but you traditional guys can and should still thrive.

The self recordists don't take business from you guys and never did. There is an ethos, craft and love in creating lofi master pieces for yourself. Of experimenting with gear with no time limits, of controling the whole process and of making the best of mimimal resources. For the person that works this way they were doing the same thing on casette long before PTle or standalone digital recorders. Technology has changed but you're not loosing business from these guys because they never were your business. Luckily for you most artists and bands don't even WANT to work this way and even if they do record themselves they fully intend to record in a proper studio when they can.

As for the enthusiast well it's never just been about the gear. With engineering experience, great rooms and years of knowledge a traditional studio should be able to make MUCH better records than someone who's dropped $40k on gear and is starting up. Seriously if your clients don't reconize you make much better records than the $8/hr guys you're probably a bad engineer and you're business is gonna go south. If you can make MUCH better records you have nothing to worry about because it will be reconized and you can and should charge for your skill accordingly.

It will be a sad day when anyone can drop $40k on a few boxes of chips and a bunch of mics and can record the same album as an experienced studio but we are definately not there yet.

[mfdu]

well said, michael. well said.

exactly what i would've liked to say, if i hadn't started getting snippy.

hang on - i thought i wasn't going to post to this topic any more.

you tricked me with your common sense attitude. damn you!!!!

:)

chris.

[davemc]

Yes there was always home recordists. That is how I started. Demos at home band recordings in studios.
Although the home recording I can do it all market over the last 5 years has grown enormously. I have lost a lot of regular clients who now do it all at home. (Only calling to see if I can help them with gear purchases). You just have to look at the amount of stuff and home recording forums on the market to see that.

Most of these newbies do not have the ears to hear the difference between a be!@#$%^& and a Neve. They just think if I buy "X" as it says in the magazines/forums my recording will get better. When there recordings still sound crap, they buy more gear. Its never taht they have no clue about engineering.
My analogy is when I brought a guitar it took me months and years to learn it, although I can buy a mbox and a Chinese LDC mic and I am a engineer.
The only thing as I said I think is a problem with some small shops is how they market. The plugins are better, or be!@#$%^& valve is cool etc.
Its hard to explain the difference in my rooms when they said but so and so said acoustics and gear do not matter now. "So who do I believe"

[heathen]

Most musicians I come in contact with are broke usually,even the ones who have been way up there in the past.The ones who have flown and fallen understand the time and effort involved in creating a good mix.The musicians who are still trying to make it don't usually ask how much with a grim look on thier faces and hoping its "only gonna cost a few hundred" to mix a demo.Fair enough 1 days work 10 hours 5 hundred capped maybe 300 if they are seriuously poor,plus a quick remix a week later if any complaints ,only takes an hour or so no big deal.The thing a few of them do also is say oh Heath can you mix a few tracks for me oh we'll pay you of course grrrrr,who hell do they think I am f#$%ing Santa,of course they will pay,up front too.
Everyone wants to be a star when they are young and turn up to a studio with wide eyes going oh yeah this is me in a few years oh yeah I'm gonna be a star just like on idol.I reckon make em feel like one charge them heaps.
Lots of times I hear oh can we just edit this that and everything,now its grumpy (because its only a demo usually)Heath saying ok if you want to start EDITING everything then this is gonna cost you a small fortune,then its like oh well that sneeze and um that fart that Jimmy dropped at the start of the third verse sound great "we'll just leave em eh" for atosphere, I usually say "great idea" unless it's a serious paying job,because I know they are poor.

Ok I get paid more for 1 day than I would filling bags with burgers at maccas in a week,I work usually when I feel like it and if someone really upsets me I tell em too get the hell outta my house and don't come back,which I've done only once.
I don't know how a person owning and running a small studio with a mortgage wife and kids could live,seriously,my parents own a grog shop and even they don't make alot money (overheads fella's),though it pays the bills. Anyone runnjing and owning and making money from a small studio,well done.
Anyone who owns and runs a big studio which makes a good band,song and arrangement sound rotten for a 1000 bucks a day (it does happen),suck my sm57 fella,go become a butcher. At least the good smaller guys add a personal touch by spending a little extra time trying to impress rather than just get this band out and another in at 9 am the next morning. Everyone who works in the audiuo field loves it c'mon admit it.And um shit I think that covers it. Sorry guys just bored,what a rant.

[mfdu]

i've always dug b*#&$^@'s yellow LED approach to valve warmth, personally. i mean, sure it sounds shite, but the valve glows, huh?
(tee hee)

plugins? c'mon everyone - sing along with me 1110 110 10110 11110110 10110. yeah - there's the international language of music comin right at ya.

not.

but we can't go blaming the retailers. it's the manufacturers. how many unmodded alesis 3630's are acting as rack spacers or doorstops, i wonder?
i've got a dBx117 from my father-in-law. way old, and still sounds like crap. but transformer crap, not IC crap.

in my world, i'm not aiming for the "my gear sounds better" angle - i aim for the "how can you create AND engineer? Here - let me give you space to create"

interesting little article - http://www.studioreviews.com/killingmusic.htm
- basically going along the lines of "if you a musician and you using more than a cassette 4track, you're probably spending too long with the gear and not enough inside your own head"

so we acknowloedge the whole home recording trip ain't new.
fine.
i think the natural evolution is for musicians to realise they cant multitask - they cant engineer and create with each eating into the other.

there's always going to be those guys who say "hey, i can lick my own balls"
but if their breath smells of @#$%, no-one's going to sit next to them on the train are they?

same thing for "self-producing artists", if you see what i mean.

chris.[/quote]

[davemc]

Yep I started doing recording as a way to get song ideas down. Now I record a lot more then I write. HAve not written for over a year..
Someone asked me the best way to record drums at home.
I said one mic is all you need for a demo.
Put the idea down and move on. Was not the answer he wanted. :)

[mfdu]

heathen - you the man!!!

totally with you on the "no edits - i'm seeking your true sound" (nice way to close the argument of "but the snare is a 64th out of time")

only one thing - you don't go saying you cant stand their music, dude.
don't even think it. you cant do that.

remember the basics of customer service.
we are (when it all comes down to it) in the service industry.
if you make the client feel stupid/useless/uncomfortable, then you ain't gonna see them again. unless your name is mistress lillith.

give them the time, make each second you're with them seem like you only exist for them.
then take the (insufficient)money, archive the project, and smile knowing you've spread the love.

each client is my universe. until they're out the door.

you folks may not like that i have a part-time job, but i tell you this - at least i know how to treat a customer.

chris.

davemc - one mic IS all they need. and they'll never thank you for it.

[heathen]

Hey chris yeah your right there everyones art is close to thier heart( I edited it,to be diplomatic).Man that rhymes I'm gonna become a rapper,hehehe.Seriously most of the music I've done I've enjoyed and listen regularly and try to promote any way possible,even if its just to my mates to go see thier shows here and there.
Today another friend just booked me in for a cheapie but hey we're good mates and I'll charge him a reasonable rate. This band absolutely rip they are fast and well rehearsed with great songs,they did an ep a while ago which I think Simon Tonks mixed from memory I'm not sure,but it sounded great anyway with a 301 master job and all. Now they've booked in at Zen to track a record live in the studio ie no drop ins or overdubs except vox harmonies maybe and some guitar solos.
This is the type of work I get it pays ok when its on,but they want it cheap.So we'll spend a long afternoon on setup and track everything hopefully the next day in an hour or so.Then mix at reasonable leisure and chill out at my place and get the mixes done,over a few days.With a record like this it always has the potential to sound shite but hey its being done and ill make it bloody sound good.But im going to make it sound live,if thats what they want thats what they get. Hopefully the vibe will be there.
Plus I'm sure I'll be mastering it too(remember cheap job), so I'm sure no top mastering houses will be worried about my avalon eq,c2 comp,apogee ( i want a pendulum es 8 too)and my select few plugs. I'm learning bloody quick though,the whole last year I devoted to learning new tequniques and approaches to different mixes more than any other year,was like starting again,most of the best info i've gained here,especially in my choices of gear selection.So thanks guys.

[mfdu]

hey heathen,

you're a poet an you didn't know it!!!!

hope your mates band goes well.
just be sure to give yourself time to experiment. each session, i try to try something new. a ribbon in place of a '57, re-amp the piano line, massively compressed room mic - anything. all you need is one extra line to tape and there's your fun quota for the day.

well, thats my theory anyway - a cheap session means time to try something new. hell, i once put cello upright bass and vocalist in a circle, a compressed small diaphragm condensor way up high above them. had them close-miced as well, but only ended up using the compressed mono ambient mic. sounded amazing.

anyway - gotta take an amp in for repairs, so cop ya later!

chris.

[Mad King Soup IV]

Just dropping in for a moment to say that this thread has been really interesting to read. I'm doing what mfdu did - leaving an IT career to hopefully engineer audio, and while I'm still at the paying-lots-of-money-to-an-academy-with-3-initials-while-working-part-time stage, this thread in particular has been an honest an insight into the real world. Thanks all!

(Back to lurking now)

[heathen]

Yeah this is a no bs forum, lots of great info,a valuable resource. Be prepared for a hell of a lot of learning.I did a course ten years ago,was great as a way to learn your way around the studio,once you finish your course be prepared to learn a hell of a lot more,this is a science and an extremely interesting one,though there are no rules,just practical basics that should be learned and understood. Good luck with the course.Also try to find someone willing to take you on as an assistant and you'll learn and understand more in the first month than you'll believe,providing they are a reasonable teacher and don't mind explaining things.

[heathen]

Hey talking about overheads,in my oldies grog shop it costs almost more to keep a carton of beer cold than the carton of beer is worth as a whole carton, all the big chains offer cartons of beer cheaper than we can possibly buy them,charity beer can you believe it. Anyone care for a 6 pack? Off topic but still relevant to a business thread.

[Howard Jones]

"Charity beer"... Sounds like charity recording.

[mfdu]

hi Mad King Soup IV

any course you do is only as good as what you let yourself get out of it.

just try to give yourself experimentation time - you'll never really learn if you are constantly churning the "talent" out like a factory and don't have time to try new things!

if you have trouble finding someone to "give" you an assistant role (i didn't think they existed anymore!) go out there and do it yourself.
find the niche that appeals to you - mine is local government and cultural empowerment - and push that l'il wagon as hard as you can.

as i've said before, i'm running MFDU because it was the only way i could gain studio experience - i wouldn't be "competing" against real studios (how?) if i had an assistant job in one of them!!!!!

all the best for your future path. keep in touch.

chris.

[Linear]

"Charity beer"... Sounds like charity recording.

Howard, you always sound so bitter!

Firstly, I don't see the problem with an occasional 'charity' recording. Lawyers do plenty of pro-bono work depending on the client/project. Doctors do lots of work for 'free' a la MCF and Fred Hollows. If there's a project I really like, and the guys are cool, and I like the music, I'd do a charity job. Set aside a number you'd do per year and stick to it though, charity jobs can cost lots of money.

Secondly, I think it would be great if everyone (even the lurkers) used their real names. It allows people to ad 'cred' or weight to posts and who knows, we may meet some time in the future.

Thirdly, here is my 2c on the industry. We (people in the game for more than a VEH) need to focus on what can't be replaced with a bedroom studio.

- Big rooms are a great start, if you've ever tried recording in a lounge you quickly appreciate a big room with space. Plus they sound great.
- Get 1 great mic rather than 10 so-so mics. Anyone can buy an MXL or Studio Project mic, even though they can be acceptable.
- ProTools in my mind is indistinguishable. I don't know the difference between HD and LE, and I know I could buy LE for change. That's why I like 2" tape, you don't find them in bedroom studios.
- Patchbays are great, there is nothing better than being able to realise an idea for something within 20 seconds, patchbays make that possible. Tie lines and good grounding and power are another bonus.

In short, focus on everything that a bedroom studio couldn't/wouldn't really have. Sure old gear is a pain in the arse, but no matter what any big-budget marketing tells you, it won't be replaced any time soon!

Cheers

Chris

[Howard Jones]

Hi Chris,

Actually, I

[mfdu]

thanks howard, and thanks to paul!

i take his points, but i'll choose to keep kidding myself. my glass is always half full, not half empty.

[quote]Loyal clients are a sure fire entry into a real studio[/quote]
thats what i'm doing this for - to build the client base, to gain that sure fire entry into a real studio that you promise is out there for me. 'cause thats what you're saying, innit?

at least i'm recording and learning.

if your mates negative attitude actually stopped me from the path i'm on, then would you feel glad that there's one less "competitor"????
(bah! i ain't no competition to metropolis or turtlerock, and we ALL know that)
i'm HOPING you'd feel sad that you had denied one person the pleasure and joy of recording that you yourself obviously hold so dear.

i'm also hoping you stay positive and pleasent when you're with clients.

or is it only me who believes in doing that?

be cool, and enjoy what you do.

chris.

[Kris]

Ok.... I'll bite.

Paul has made some pretty good points about the state of the industry but he has also been incredibly stupid at the same time. Do you think I'll ever take any work to him after that rant?

Seriously, great PR Paul, just fantastic. Good thing U2 didn't come to you when they first started, you know, not being able to play their instruments and all that.

I don't know you and I'm sure you've never heard of me and that's fine. But I'm not going to stop doing what I do because of comments like yours. Good grief, if everyone listened to you nothing would ever get done. At least Rick and the greater Turtlerock team encouarges the "martyrs" that dwell here. He offers advice to even the dimmest of talents which is more than can be said of you.

And are you telling me that you've never worked from home? Hypocrisy much?

Get off your high horse and take your head out of your arse. Look around and you'll see audio is not the elitist establishment you wish it was. Everyone has to start somewhere and you can either embrace it and be part of it or you can sit there and pour scorn on it while it looks like nothing...but one day you'll be very sorry. Things that build momentum slowly are often very hard to stop once they get moving. Get on board now Paul or be crushed later down the line.

[Linear]

Hmm, talking about throwing stones...

I agree with some stuff, but some of the comments are bordering on ridiculous. It makes for interesting chat though, so I'll respond...

[quote="Paul Bryant"]
I

[Martin]

[quote="Kris"]Look around and you'll see audio is not the elitist establishment you wish it was.[/quote]

Best point of the lot right there.

As far as bands being good enough? the competition is hotting up big time and there is more and more talent coming through (i know, i teach/record them!)

so rock'n'roll was birthed the middle of last century, bet all those kids weren't given instruments and music lessons from an early age like they are now, music and the recording of music, is only going to get bigger and bigger, sure there might never be millions of dollars in it, but i'm happy to jump on board regardless of weather its the 301 carriage or the 2nd class 'designed by a forum member' carriage!

[davemc]

umm Failed studios if thats towards my studio.
Its been professionally acoustically done out. It translates really well, the live room is nice and tight for a smallish room. As Chris said means nothing to clients.
The two reasons I am not getting the amount of steady work in has to do with me. I know what they are.
1) Mainly I am not the worlds best marketer. I cannot just lie to bands.
There are a few places in Melb who push be!@#$%^& is just as good (if not better) as anything out there. The only reason people bash be!@#$%^& is they spent 10 times as much on something not as good. Its very hard to compete against lies.. As the band does not know who is telling the truth.
50% of my work has always been young bands.. A lot of bands know nothing about studios.
2) I always allowed bands to have a large say in mixes.. So a lot of the work I have done I personally think is driven by one members Ego. Hence I do not mix each band the same and I do every different style. The studio has no "Indent Studio Sound". I have wrestled with this a long time. For a lot of bands its only ever going to get played to there Mum.. So should I mix it how I want or what they want. The work that actually I am more proud of and actually got played was stuff that I and the band clicked with. So we co-produced it. .

About getting out. Well I have no debt. I sell it all and end my lease. Would like someone to take over the rooms, I have a bit of interested as they sound really great, I am in a good location Brunswick(Sydney Rd) and the rent is real cheap.
Until someone buys the rooms or I get another day job I will use the rooms. Even if I end up with a 002:) Although tempted to buy a 2" and a desk:)

[mfdu]

[quote="Linear"]how else are they supposed to learn?[/quote]

yeah. that is the crux of the whole thing.


davemc - my heart goes out to you. good on you for everything you've done for the melbourne musicians that have made their way to you. you've really made an indent (sic) that i hope i can slavishly emulate.


paul, my dear lad. no. never mind. sit back down.


martin - whether you're 1st or 2nd (or 301st) class, as long as you stay positive the clients will keep coming. i dig what you say about the new crop of musicians. i started on violin at age 4 and played string and brass till my early 20's when they were too uncool. now kids are doing the same, but with rock/pop. kids these days . . .
and i'm only 33!


howard - you keep poking that possum. i know you wouldn't piss on me if i was on fire, but i'm here for the long term. hopefully i will earn your respect someday. because that kind of thing matters to me.


chris.

[michael]

yeah interesting... I couldn't honestly say that anything Paul via Howard wrote is factually inaccurate... but the funny thing is I'm completely opposed to that position in every way.

There are too many examples one could cite of engineers that started recording on ghetto equipment home to learn their craft, 60% - 70% of the engineers cv's I've read or spoken with would have done that. (actually probably 80 - 90%) It's laughable to sugest that it's not a valid way of learning.

And the attitude towards inexperienced bands distills perfectly what i experienced both times I've recorded in studios... as the band. It's beautiful, i really couldn't have captured 'the band is the ememy' vibe as well as Paul did.

I'm just amazed that some people get into recording... I'm sure that they do or did love music, and maybe want to be creative but many of them are or turn into arrogant concieted pains in the arse, and to an inexperienced band (no, actually in most cases a very tight & solid band that's inexperienced at recording) there is nothing more soul destroying and creatively damaging than to have to deal with them.

Honestly it's no wonder people explore home recording.

It's so easy when you've been in the recording environment for years to become blase about the studio experience and forget how foreign it is for someone with no exposure (like to play a click, record with headphones, lay down overdubs, not have eyecontact with each other, etc). And the engineer thinks "fuckng kids. piss poor music, and then they can't even play it! Better not touch any of my gear in there!" the band gets overwhelmed, pissed off at the vibe and can't perform half as well as they usually can. HATE the experience.

I said before that big studios and the good small studios should thrive, i really do believe that and it's sad when i hear the stories of studios closing up. But, with computers and cheap recording gear, studios have to offer something other than a 57 going to protools and an attitude. You need great rooms & you need one or two great mics (as said above), you need to be understanding, explain the process and be creative, you need to offer an experience (a good one) It really doesn't matter what you charge but ultimately it HAS to be value for money.

I mean, i don't know Paul and this isn't directed at him particuarly - just random web msgboarding, but to anyone- if you have your established rep and you get such a good stream of name bands and don't want to deal with kids; awesome, good for you. Don't deal with them, don't consider discounting for them, don't take thier money and they wont be fucked around either. It's a win-win. But if that is the case there is also no reason to be threatened and rail against start ups who do want that business or the home guys that have coped the attitude before and think they can get better results themselves. Again, it's a win-win.

[mfdu]

yeah.




YEAH.