Turtlerock Forum

Hey guys....

to any of the musicians lurking these parts...i assume thats most of us :P

does anyone know any comprehensive online sources (or books, if there's not much online) that explain modulation...between diff key signatures...diff chords..in detail from very elementary to very advanced....ie. creative dissonance.

and i mean i want something that goes from simple II V I to ...sudden changes, accidental use, and so on...

any help would be great!!

Man you think toooo much, haha. :)

Hi,

It depends on where you want to start and what you want to do with it all...

.... do you want to explore in or outside the realm of 'triadic' functional harmony?

i think it is good to at least understand how all that stuff works so....

if you want to start in the 20th century - popular music - i think the "jazz theory book" by mark levine ( i think it is called the jazz piano theory book)
is a good place to start - it covers basic 12 bar blues and variations, then into ii-V-I territory, then modal Jazz, then altered stuff.... lots of annotated examples that make refrence to classic jazz recordings....

the other approach is to find a good classical (repertoire) book that covers it from the 17th c to 20th century western european perspective...

if you want something more current (say last 30years) i dont know if there is much out there in print which is a shame.....

(i studied composition formally a few years back and couldn't find anything on the subject)

honestly - check out stevie wonder songs - i believe in a lot of ways he was responsible for bringing really advanced harmonic concepts to popular music - extended altered chords, 13th voicings - and my favorite "parallel chords" ie - shifting a given chord around...

further more all of the electronic music people that (in the 90's) started sampling a given chord and then moving it around the keyboard - again 'parallel harmony'....

i wouldn't mind elaborating further if you give me a bit more insight into where you want to go with it - especially if you could reference any recordings or artists that are a step in the direction you want to take...

problem with most theory books is that they are bound to the rules of triadic functional harmony.... whereas a person in todays age has probably gotten rather tired of that sound as it has been with us for hundreds of years...... heck - even 10 year old kids with guitars make songs that are more harmonically complex than the usual ii-V-I stuff by.... moving power chords chromatically all over the neck in ways that they like the sound of......

it's good to pull apart works that sound interesting and analyse what they are up to..... this can be impossible sometimes but fun nevertheless...

p.s ........ my personal source of inspiration in the classical realm are periods such as the 'late romantic' and 'early atonal' but not 'serial' genres....

sorry for the long reply.... too much coffee and an inherent inability to convey my thoughts in a coherent manner.

regards

I can add my support for Mark Levine's book - fantastic resource.

Dave

yo dudez..

i've actually got mark levines book hangin around somewhere:P

if its that recommended, as it seems to be..i should probably dig into it a little more!!!


i dunno if im after playing "jazz" as such...but learning what it has to offer wont hurt! im more after wanting to develop my own compositional sesne...lets say if i've got some cool melody...and wana develop it in interesting ways, i wanna understand what im doing...that said..i dont mind being ignorant of theory im using, however, i would like to master it, nonetheless!

a strong grounding in chromatic harmony is essential if you want to do what you're talking about. i highly recommend Harmony & Voice Leading by Aldwell & Schachter. it may seem a little dry & academic at first, but once you get on top of that, your world will open up.

jkhuri44 wrote:Hey guys....

to any of the musicians lurking these parts...i assume thats most of us :P

does anyone know any comprehensive online sources (or books, if there's not much online) that explain modulation...between diff key signatures...diff chords..in detail from very elementary to very advanced....ie. creative dissonance.

and i mean i want something that goes from simple II V I to ...sudden changes, accidental use, and so on...

any help would be great!!

What sort of stuff are would be similar to what your after? Say Mr Bungle, System of a down, Frank Zappa or none of the above just out of interest.

A good mate of mine is extremely good at stuff like this and has a lot of reference material including a lot of modal charts plus a whole heap of other world music scales and modes and crazy chord charts.

yo heath

yeah...i listen to heaps of stuff...all the mentioned....lots of 20th century classical, indian music, crap loads of world music...im going through my traditional classical music phase from all around the world at the moment...

my atonal, crazy wacky Mr Bungle days or random dada are over!! i cant stand that shit much any more...i appreciate it but i think it is the same thing repeated over and over.


"modal charts plus a whole heap of other world music scales and modes and crazy chord charts. "

thats exactlt what im after, charts, lists....reference material...to go through at my leisure, when im in the writing phase of any project :)


PS. thanks for that recomendation wez...ill try find it asap :)

cheers guys :)

Like any other pursuit worth doing, it takes time and application. But if you are a serious about a career in the industry then any study will be beneficial. Although people often talk down learning jazz harmony (that old fuddy duddy music) it is basis of most popular music. Even if you don't care for it the lesson's learned in harmony definitely are!! I can highly recommend finding a tutor, even if it is for a few one off lessons. Try and find a pianist or guitar player so they can demonstrate/play you the harmony. +1 for the Mark Levine book.

My 0.1c

jkhuri44 wrote:yo heath

yeah...i listen to heaps of stuff...all the mentioned....lots of 20th century classical, indian music, crap loads of world music...im going through my traditional classical music phase from all around the world at the moment...

my atonal, crazy wacky Mr Bungle days or random dada are over!! i cant stand that shit much any more...i appreciate it but i think it is the same thing repeated over and over.


"modal charts plus a whole heap of other world music scales and modes and crazy chord charts. "

thats exactlt what im after, charts, lists....reference material...to go through at my leisure, when im in the writing phase of any project :)


PS. thanks for that recomendation wez...ill try find it asap :)

cheers guys :)

I'll go through all my old theory stuff today and see what I can find, I dont have a scanner but my mate who gave me all this stuff does, I can probably pick the best charts and scan them in for you and email them over or if your in the area I could lend you my charts and just bring em back when your finished.

Classical modes I think are one of the most important things a lead guitarist or keyboardist should learn if the want to break away from straight major or minor, modes add real flavour to a chord progression, from an evil sounding locrian run to triumphant ionian run or different cultural modes from persian to indian, though 1/4 tones are difficult on guitar unless your a master at small bends.

I used to play all this stuff before I had a brain injury (left my strumming hand weak and unco) and it's actually quite easy if your already a pretty good guitarist, add modes with tapping solos and whammy bars and your half way to sounding like Steve Vai.

Dunno if you listen to much Vai but his album "The Ultra Zone" is packed full of world music scales and melodies.

Also System of a down do this very well too, the song Radio/Video, I think these guys are Armenian from memory, but the I think Armenian polka type piano accordian thing as absolutely brilliant with the vocal melody which intertwines trough it. Then straight into a chunky metal riff, it's a superb example of these type of ideas.

First time I heard System was in my mates (my guitar teacher) car, I said turn this metal shite off not in the mood, he says nah listen for a minute, I'm like yeah ok, anyway after the 2nd song I'm sayin "who the hell is this it's f'ing brilliant". It's got a bit o0f everything.

Anyway man just let me know if you want this stuff, I'm home most days so just gimmee a call if you want to drop in. Numbers 9451 5447.

i spent some time studying the traditional indian (spots, not feathers) forms of music. takes things far outside the western chordal /chromatic traditions.

i think this was one of the texts - Appreciating India's music : an introduction, with an emphasis on the music of South India / by Emmons E. White.
St Kilda Library has it, for a start - dewey 781.754

it really had an impact on me at the time - i was playing live in an ambient duo / trio and we enthusiastically explored the raga traditions in a modern amplified context.

c.mfdu

hi chris,

thats definatly the direction im heading into...my head space isnt in western music so much anymore...listenin to shitloads of indian stuff at the moment....so yeah ill check that book out too.

Funnily enough, im doing a small project at the moment with a South indian male vocalist and a Folk female indian vocalist, sort like Indian electronic...very traditional, BUT also modern....cant wait to see how it pans out..ill post it on the Downunder section of Rec Project when im done for some feeedback.

Thanks all, lots of awesome stuff here!

jkhuri44 wrote:
Funnily enough, im doing a small project at the moment with a South indian male vocalist and a Folk female indian vocalist, sort like Indian electronic...very traditional, BUT also modern....cant wait to see how it pans out..ill post it on the Downunder section of Rec Project when im done for some feeedback.

Thanks all, lots of awesome stuff here!

Hey that should be interesting, I think it's great bringing the traditional and modern together especially in electronic music. Would be good to hear when completed.

I do a lot of my own electronic stuff too, my mate recorded a few pieces from the world music fair (on mini disk) a few years back in Adelaide, this one piece just sounded so bloody good, I extracted these 2 great loops, dunno what the instruments were but there are some great tabla in it, I layered both samples over each other and created this f'ing weird loop then squished them into a 4/4 beat added some extra synths and drums and it sounds damn cool.

Making a bass line, melody and chord progression for this was not easy, but I did it. sounds very modern and traditional. I should get around to finishing it.