Turtlerock Forum

Hey turtlerockers
We really need to start talking about solar powering our studios (or partly powered by solar)
In the future our energy costs are going to skyrocket.
Who is doing it?
I am planning to go there soon(ish)
Lets get chatting about this (climate change denier's go stick your heads in the sand)
This is going to be part of our future
Lets talk

Yeah i want to do it - if someone has good info on how please post it.

We don't need people to say its too hard.
We just need to pool our thoughts and ideas
I spoke to Andy Stewart a few months ago and he is looking into this too
Andy - any ideas
I know there is some small (tiny) studios doing it - but are there any medium to big studios attempting this
I had a chat with Rick the other day and he seems to think it is nearly impossible for a large(ish) (I was hassling him to be the first mastering studio to go there...don't think I got anywhere though)
If I was building a new facility I would be at least attempting to go there - even if it was only a percentage of the power I needed, I would need to plan for the expensive future costs of power.
Rick - chime in please

its totally doable if you are in an area where you can use windpower ( you cannot in inner city sydney )
but not solar unless you have a lot of space
at one stage i was moving to homebush bay and we looked well into it

you dont run anything on solar or wind power of course you charge up batteries with the power source and then run off batteries which in every way is a great idea .

now if i could just find room for the battery bank err that is a roomfull to run my weiss/maya gear :)

battery technology is here for smaller solar loads , but batteries are not a free ride on the enviroment either
maybe i really will add this to the list of things to do ?


andy doesnt post or read this forum unless he wants something which is usually a fight !

Cmon Andy
Lets have a fight!

Hey Chris, there's a good article on the topic by Greg Simmons in AT issue 56.

Oh shit - must have missed that one
Is it on the net?

It's from Sept 2007, Bill Bottrell on the cover.

oh 2007 , well everything has changed since then , global warming and all that :)

You wanna talk about power needs? Try powering a printing factory! Ha ha. We have astronomical power bills and I was looking at a way to own our power and have independence from the grid(backup etc). So wind and solar was investigated. Need some real specific conditions to get it to work. Obviously for wind power you need .... Lots of wind. Duh. Places near beaches are good. Need to angle them right. Btw it's not the turbines that are expensive...it's the storage batteries. They say that the usual setup involves both solar and wind. Generalised - no wind usually equals good sun. No sun usually equals good wind.

If you have good wind onsite (which is unlikely) the wind turbine don't take up a large amount of real estate. (it's tall and skinny). But to generate the same amount of power using solar power you have to sacrifice a lot of real estate. Which becomes in practcal in most cases.

A very interesting option that I lastly investigated was finding land where it is windy consistently and putting in a turbine. Eventually creating a wind farm. I rang power and water and they said they would absolutely pay us for all power generated. We plug into the grid and then we become the power factory ! Doesn't give you mission critical power but it does help to offset your power bill.

Romantic idea ... But risky ... Maintenence cost unknown and not a very quick ROI. But romantic to think that you coul invest in land, turbines and eventually make profit from power... Nice dream....

At this stage I have stopped talking and are in the middle of getting a 3.6 kw system installed on my house. I have built a hidden valley into my roof which faces north to conceal the panels so my house looks visualy the same as everyone else in the street. I have fitted 24 panels in this as well as solar HW with gas boost. This will supply enough energy to power the whole house including aircon. During the day I over produce and it goes into the main grid, while at night I draw back from the grid. Including the gov., subsidy ($11000) the total cost is $34,000. My break even at current electricity prices is 7 years. I think it will end up at about 5 taking into account increases over that period. The system is guaranteed for 20 years but will give far more service than that. The cost of panels comming from China are going to bring the price down by nearly half over the next few years and this is when I cover the studio building roof with them. This is no longer rocket science, just a matter of money. The way I see it I am advance paying my bill for the next 5-7 years to get a 15 year holiday with no further bills. Norm

Well done Norm - its a big expense, and with the power costs going up steeply, you may make your money back a lot sooner.
I am waiting for another 12-18 months for prices to drop, as all this global CPRS will push the costs down immensely - and maybe Kev will throw even more subsidies once the world signs on...
Most of us wont have access to wind - (unless we put turbines outside major record companies who have an abundance of "wind" at their disposal)

Yes, unfortunately I think doing the 'right' thing can be an expensive way to go.
I had solar hot water installed about a year ago. I've been very happy with it so far.
I admit I'm confused about solar power. Has the government moved the goal posts? Did I read some new rebate system is coming in 2010?
I want to do it.
I'll be having a small studio and I have acres of roof space. It's also windy at my place about 360 days a year.
I'm used to the UK scenario, where you are paid to generate power for the grid during the day, helping to reduce your bills.
I think I read that wasn't allowable in NSW?
Like I said, I'm confused.
I think they should just make the whole thing simple to understand and easy to do, Australia-wide.
When I first came to this country with so much sunshine, wave and wind resources available, I was honestly shocked to see the two kilometre long trains carrying coal to the power stations. Everyone in the city should have solar hot water (free).

Hi Chris

We built our house in the hills of Kangaroo Valley and have been living under solar power for the last 3 years. What a dream! We live no differently to the way we lived in Sydney with power except we have learnt to turn lights out when leaving a room. Well, at least I have. My wife likes to light our house up like the opera house at night. BTW, we are totally off the grid. The only thing connected to our house from the outside world is the phone/ADSL. We take care of everything else. I have a 2 Kw system + 12 panels/ inverter/regulator/12 x 2 volt battaries (big deep cycle). Total cost was $31000. I unfortunately did this under the Howard government and only got $4000 back under their rebate.
I also built a separate building just down below our house (the studio) that we use as guest accomm. which I'll add onto soon and build my studio in the hills.
I'm ultimately heading for a solar powered studio retreat with accommodation. You know, come and record/stay/play and cash in your carbon credits.

My current studio is 30 mins drive from my house and is in a council owned building. I should hassle them to power the building using these technologies because it has the perfect aspect to sun and wind.

Wind power is now a viable concept for the tops of buildings in the city. The problem with wind power is up to recently you needed to have a strong direct wind (not swirling) for it to be effective and spin the turbine. There is new wind technology (last 4 years) that works with swirling winds. Instead of the traditional propellor turbine it uses a drum turbine spinning on its end. I'll see if I can spot it on the interweb and post it. The germans and others have been testing this technology for a while now on apartment building in cities. You would be getting a strong wind tunnel at your studio in Surry Hills. However, you would need both solar and wind (solar/wind for day and wind to supplement the night power).
First check your roof for how much sun you get everyday, do surrounding buildings effect your sun hours?. Do this each season to check the angle of the sun on your roof top. Needs to be north facing of course with plenty of sun hours all year round. You may need to invest in a wrecking ball to take out a couple of buildings.
Then start making a list of all your power requirements - go around to each device you have in the studio and write down its power rating and how long it's turned on during the working day (good job for the studio assistant to do). Both of these will tell you if it's a viable project for you. You are driving some hefty equipment like old consoles built when power wasn't an issue. What about air con? That's a big consideration. But you can look at other ways to ventilate and cool your studio spaces. I would say that you'd be better considering a grid connected system (without batteries) were you use the sun during the day and regular green power in the evening or when the sun is not around. Plus the drum wind turbines could work out great for you.

Something to think about - the techniques and materials used to make solar systems are not exactly saving the planet. There does need to be more focus on building these technologies with recycled and energy efficient materials. In my case it's essential to have solar power as I'm too far away from the grid.
But what makes me happy is I never see a power bill in my post box.

Great topic Chris.

cheers

I don't know weather its viable at BJB - Our 60 channel neve V1 has to run 24/7 365 days per year.
Each time its powered down for a while switches and relays can go wonky - All our tech's say keep it running constantly for reliability (thousands of switches/relays/caps etc etc)
We have been running it constantly for 6 years now.
The wall of huge power supplies would be a massive draw on power - let alone a huge aircon pumping cold air into the underside of the console (otherwise it becomes a barbeque)
Our Quadeight gets turned off at night no problem (not bad for 35 years old)
I am thinking more about my place in Tasmania - where I will avoid a big console - as I am now becoming addicted to a passive mix bus(proharmonic) with old pre's and eq's and console modules in the chain, its a bit of a patching nightmare, but uses way less power, but the sound is amazing (2 x Rola 77's for my master fader).
This whole setup at BJB is way too big for solar and wind (3 studios/3 consoles) - but will be looking into it as I will not have a choice in the matter soon - The studio is in the highest point in Sydney, but still rarely enough constant wind - and we are renting so it is a huge expense with a medium term lease - if I owned the building then it would make more sense (and money).
Someone could make a great business setting up solar power for studios....

Fully understand Chris. My DDA DMR12 stays on most days of the year for the same reason. Turning it off can make my stereo bus go weak on one side.
A few links. You are probably already across this stuff. I can't find the particular rooftop turbine I was talking about in my previous post.

http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable- ... l-use.html
http://greenenergytv.com/Watch.aspx?v=1113976021
http://www.thefutureisawesome.com/category/energy/
http://www.rooftopwind.biz/html/supa_flo_wec.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq9N_6j5GjU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-aZWt6i ... re=related
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/vawt.htm

You will no doubt get some great winds in Tasmania. The roaring forties.
Go the combo solar/wind and and you probably never need to use a backup generator in long rainy periods.
After about 4 or 5 days of constant cloud and rain I need to turn my backup generator on for 2.5 hours to recharge.

Just to be clear. The 2 KW system I have is the max intake from the sun to panels, but my Inverter can give me up to 9000 watts of power at anytime. Enough for any project studio and house. Extra panels can easily be added to soak up more power during the day.

I was going to leave my head firmly in the sand, but just come across this http://www.slate.com/id/2231511/ and it was just too on-topic to ignore.

We diss the quality of MP3, but it turns out to be saving the planet, especially in comparison to that horrible plastic stuff.

Green power is a great idea, but yes as Rick said the current batteries that are used to store power are probably worse for the environment than burning coal. Feeding power back into the grid is better as your not going to need batteries for storage.

Some new battery technology which will be appearing soon in electric and hybrid cars can store about 500 times the power of a standard battery, this will improve things greatly.

Also I read an article in "Nexus" magazine the other day linking "dirty power" caused by ELF's with cancer clusters, they specifically mentioned the ABC building in Brisbane where there was a breast cancer cluster as having maybe a link to dirty power. Nexus is usually pretty out there but once in a while they have good article. Also mentioned were power spikes and ELF's being generated by wind farms.

The only way to get a virtually free lunch is with nuclear fusion, it is the future of power generation if some smart cookie can get the reaction started safely, contained and the reaction sustained. Quite a few years away but will be the best option we have.

I know some will wanna shoot me for this but I think global warming/climate change is absolute BS, thing is we live on a planet where things are constantly changing, the sun dictates our climate more than we ever can. They even keep changing it from greenhouse effect to global warming to climate change to...... what's next? It's just another greedy bunch trying to extract money for useless studies that accomplish nothing, by playing on peoples fears. The money would be better spent on fusion, lowering the worlds population by 60% and banning plastics.

Some clown is always preaching doom and yes we are never far from it, next volcanic caldera eruption could cool the Earth 5-10 degrees for 100 years, causing mass starvation and other problems.Is it worth worrying about? Not to me.

Pollution and land clearing are the real problems, which is causing a toxic, long lasting mess and poisoning us and every other living thing in the environment, this seriously bothers me.

Fusing hydrogen has no pollution, is not radioactive and could power a city like Sydney for 2 years on a small bucket full. A few 10's of billion in research and we could really have it, but it gets very little funding, which is bloody stupidity on every governments part. Rudd just threw away 40 billion.

Even small generators that run on hydrogen would be perfect, as burning hydrogen only releases h2o vapour.

Anyway anyone who wants to use green power has both my thumbs up for giving it a go and thinking about thier effects on the environment.

heathen wrote:Even small generators that run on hydrogen would be perfect, as burning hydrogen only releases h2o vapour.

...and where does this hydrogen come from? it's split from water, using a lot of grid power (from coal fired power stations, here)

hydrogen fuel cells are great in that they can carry a lot of usable energy for not a lot of mass/size, but they're absolutely not a source of energy.

Fusing hydrogen has no pollution, is not radioactive and could power a city like Sydney for 2 years on a small bucket full.

this techonlogy does not exist. it might one day, but we could throw trillions at it, and end up with nothing, or worse, a few smoking craters where cities containing research centres used to be.

before the technology is proven to be possible, we may as well be waiting around and pinning our hopes on the magic carbon fairy to come along and clean up our mess for us.




As for all the anti global warming stuff.... there's far too much peer reviewed evidence supported from far too many experiments and observations to ignore this or write it off anymore. If it were possible to discredit, there'd be a lot of scientific kudos and money to be gained by someone doing it properly - but nobody has.

Any crank can write some crap on the web about how global warming isn't happening at their house, but peer reviewed scientific journals like Nature require a bit of work to be published in.

See, i knew it would ruffle feathers, but hey I've made my own informed opinion, does'nt mean you have to or even want to agree. I just do'nt believe everything I see on TV. Climate change scientists to me are no more credible than George Bush talking about WMD's.

Splitting the atom took a hell of a lot of money and left numerous radioative craters in the ground.

Fusion may not actually be that far away, the Japanese can currently contain a fusion reaction though not for very long, it is gaining in time with every new design.

It's a simple eqation lead acid/lithium batteries to store so called "green power" or burning coal or using radioactive nuclear fission reactors. Or try for something better like fusion, I never believed in the ol "she'll be right mate". Or "near enough is good enough", I reckon if we need new energy lets go for the best one.

Hydrogen is readilly available as a by-product of other industrial processes. A lot of busses are already running on hydrogen.

I actually think the opposite, putting more money into research is the way to go, fusion is 100% possible, it has been done, a fusion bomb is only radioactive because of the plutonium core needed for the power to kickstart the reaction. A contained reaction (without a radioactive kickstart is what's needed) is very safe if it's away from cities, even if it does go boom it does'nt spread radiation. What's wrong with that???

Anyway i'll just keep shivering through the coldest start to spring in 40 years, while the Antarctic gets cooler. I guess it went from "global warming" to "climate change" so they can be right either way.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 01,00.html

They'd blame the recent earthquakes on global warming if they could.

maybe if this forum's protocol bans religion and porn it should consider banning politics!?

"climate change" is more to do with politics than science. And there is exceptionally good money to be made in "research" to support the case that humans are causing climate change. In fact it is a well-spring of funding for all sorts of researchers who might othewise be waiting on tables whilst musing on the fruitlessness of their newly acquired degree.

I studied physics, chemistry and applied mathematics at university for three years and find it exceptionally difficult to wade through the science and spin of the pro and con arguments on human induced climate change. And wade through it I do. I've just spend my lazy sunday afternoon reading research papers and documents on the water supply issue in Australia. I have the luxury of time. resources and inclination to do this sort of stuff. Most people don't.

I've also read most of Ian Plimers book on climate change and besides wishing that he had a better editor to help him produce a more readable book would commend that this book should be read by anyone wishing to work towards making informed decisions about this issue.

No doubt the planet's climate is changing. A starting point is the understanding that the climate has always changed and will continue to do so.
The constant barrage, spin and focus on climate change could be the great distraction from the real issues on this planet. Thus excusing us from the hard decisions and even harder actions on what the human species might have to do if we wish to preserve our western lifestyles and allow the vast majority of the rest of the planet's population, the same opportunities.

Government sponsored solar panels are the purview of the wealthy and are not a solution to "green" global energy production.

Well, at the end of the day I just think of it in very simple terms:
We have over polluted the planet on such an enormous scale
Anything - I mean anything that can help reduce pollution IS a good thing - So any start in this direction gets me pumped (even if they are small steps)
I have 2 kids and currently there is now a possibility of reducing some of our pollution - it is my responsibility to my(and your) kids and their children and so on.
All the rest is politics & arguments & variations of bullshit - (we think we are so advanced - the ultimate arrogant species with just a minute speck of intelligence)
If the system we set up is good for the rich then that is entirely another matter - this is when when politics comes into it - vote /riot /march/revolutionise!
Lets get back to the topic - we are all going to pay enormously for our power costs - how can we reduce these costs to stay in business?
I am going to go solar/wind - anything I can to do my bit.

rob
my grandfather sorted out the water problem in australia in the fifties

"australia doesnt have enough water in the right places for the growing population , until we pay a premium for water the absurd notion that we have a god given right to have water were it was never intended to be will never ever change
neither will the water problem "

you pay you money you get your turn ...

Ian Plimer is a fraud.

Denying human-induced climate change is akin to denying the passage of time.

I have a lot to say on this issue, but don't think this is the right forum (sic) for this sort of debate.

Chris

I ummmm don't want to bag out old Neves but Chris if you have to leave that thing on 24/7 then that's got a pile coal next it that would probably fill 100 olympic swimming pools every year or 2. I know, I love vintage gear too but......... can't it be fixed so it can be switched off?

My rig runs at a total of about 2200 watts, (yeah it's shit compared to yours but pretty effective and efficient.)

Anyway there's plenty of stuff we as individuals can do. I try everyday to make less mess and pollution and think about it regularly.

Old Neves - old SSL's - nearly anything made in the 80's actually - all the switches are shit.
Especially when consoles like our Neve has someone twiddling the knobs 12-16 hours a day 95% of every month year after year.
Its very common to leave big consoles powered up - even modern ones
And I have a business to run - hence I'm looking at scaling down my energy use (at home too) and attempting to generate some power as well.

I don't think we should underestimate solar
Both Syd and Canberra universities are making new solar panels that are a fraction of the size of current ones, they are soon to go into production - let alone what other institutions all over the world are scrambling to make.
Battery power is developing at a huge pace - consider where we were only a few years ago with our mobiles and laptops. Then there are other forms of power storage being developed all over the planet.
Man can be smart when he has to - we just have to get there with the smartest minds on the planet, using the least amount of energy, emitting the smallest possible amount of pollution (carbon or otherwise)
I think we are on the cusp of great things with power generation and storage - and tragic things (like currently around 27.000 species of animals become extinct every year by human "activity")

I just do'nt believe everything I see on TV. Climate change scientists to me are no more credible than George Bush talking about WMD's.

*yawn*

....and so everyone who disagrees with you is just some brainwashed tv watching sucker who also believed that there would be WMDs in iraq?

well, at least we're not nazi pedophiles, I suppose...

I just hope your actual opinion is better informed than your arguments.



anyway - enough of that.

it's really cool to see there's people actually doing something about solar/alternative energy already. very surprising in a really good way. And if the economics work so that you can pay off your investment in 7 years, then live with basically "free" energy for another 8 or so, that's really cool.

sure it's obviously only worthwhile for someone pretty rich, who can afford 7 years of power bills in one hit, and owns their own home at the moment, but at least it's an option for some people. And while I don't believe that solar and wind power are the ultimate answer to our clean energy needs, they're a good solid start with something that works right now.

The Tasmanian wrote:Old Neves - old SSL's - nearly anything made in the 80's actually - all the switches are shit.
Especially when consoles like our Neve has someone twiddling the knobs 12-16 hours a day 95% of every month year after year.
Its very common to leave big consoles powered up - even modern ones
And I have a business to run - hence I'm looking at scaling down my energy use (at home too) and attempting to generate some power as well.

Was just wondering Chris not having a go at you, offsetting the energy you use in the studio by lowering your other power consumption is a good idea. In our new house we got the whole place fully insulated, hav'nt even needed a heater or aircon yet. We got a water tank which all dunnies and garden taps run from. So yeah I'm doing my own bit too.

It's true new solar panel designs are coming out and becoming more efficient, I read about 5 years back in "New scientist" that a new 3D panel was being built, instead of a flat panel they were designing one which has microscopic cells on microscopic towers just like a tiny tree with leaves, which I think trippled or more the output power. But yeah better batteries are whats really needed.

no-fi wrote:


well, at least we're not nazi pedophiles, I suppose...



.

Farout Julian I hope not, ummmm how did that come into it??