Turtlerock Forum

Anyone got any thoughts on the pro's/con's of tracking a band this way... Drums (with guitar and bass guide), then guitar parts, then bass.

I've just had some first-hand experience with it this week and I'm not sure what to think about the whole process.

Dave

Did it on my band's album, don't think it makes any difference. Everyone knows the bass will just be turned down in the mix anyway ;)

Sheer Noise wrote:Anyone got any thoughts on the pro's/con's of tracking a band this way... Drums (with guitar and bass guide), then guitar parts, then bass.

I've just had some first-hand experience with it this week and I'm not sure what to think about the whole process.

Dave

I suppose ultimately it depends on the band...

I've always thought of the drums and bass being intertwined, cohesive, the foundations of a song perhaps. When the foundations of a song are strong, then you can build the rest on top of it. Then again, this is recording, there are no rules.

Hey David,

There might be advantages to either approach (before or after) but,

Personally - i think it is important to set up a tonal / attack / spatial balance between the bass and drums FIRST so vital parameters such as setting up the selection of drums tuning of drums and mics, placement, selection of bass, di or amp can be made early on (even if the recording takes place in a different order...)

my reasoning,

1... The Bass and Drums (floor Tom and Kick) occupy a similar frequency band(s) (low-low mids - body of bass sound and body of drum resonance) and higher up (beater sound, and fingers, popping, slap tone or.... pick....sound on strings)

I think it is vitally important to make these two instruments blend well.... and that means spending the time to get it right early on...

Special focus early on will make it easier to hear if the drums are tuned in a way that feels right with the bass.

And it is easier (or more depressing) to focus on 'matching the instruments' at this early stage...

Depressing - because more often than not the instruments people choose to record with are crap and will make it near impossible to get a good sound..... let alone the sound they are after....

I Don't have the nerve to tell the drummer to 'learn how to tune their drums properly' and the bass player to not record bass with a baritone guitar...i mean cough cough.....super dooper ibanez ultra thin neck balsa wood look how easy i am to play but sound crap bass ...cough cough

i can't stand the idea of bass players that can only use a pick - use one for stylistic reasons not because you haven't developed finger technique....rant over....

butt...... assuming the artists have their sound and instruments sorted out.... still better to do it first so that you present a more cohesive finished 'soundbed' to the rest of the band.

2... The key of the song and subsequent bassnotes might or might not sit right with the bassdrum.... better to sort this out 'drum tuning' or 'key change' before half the band needs to re-record - unless pitch shifting / time stretch is not a moral issue...

3... As a guitar player - i find it heaps more enjoyable to jam with a rhythm section... i think it would be more cohesive... but ace musicians could probably do it eitherway...

but - like it has been said - there are no rules? - why record drums first??

Harry Arvanitis

Definitely can appreciate the good sense of "bedding" the track down with bass and drums first - the time-honoured way to get track fell - but, then again, artists like Jackson Browne had arrangements that totally contravened this approached, but worked beautifully:
Verse 1: piano and vox, fair enough
Verse 2: piano, vox, bass: strange, but works
Verse 3: add pedal steel
Last verse: add drums: excellent buid-up and surprise entry of a kit at the end

The philosophy behind tracking bass last (as it was communicated to me) was to allow the bass "parts" to fit better with the guitar and piano parts. So it was more about the arrangements than anything else as I saw it. Makes sense in theory, I'm yet to hear if it's worked in practise for this gig... I'll find out in a few months when the tracks come back from Nashville.

Interesting.

I've actually started doing drums last. I program a good, accurate guide and then lay everything else over it. I find that when I get the real drummer in at the end he has a much better feel as everything is there with him. We can also figure out a lot easier what kind of snare tuning the track needs in this context. Doesn't work with every drummer but the guys I use seem to be cool with it.

Drummer on this project was Pete Drummond... great player...

I'm sure the finished tracks will sound great... just curious more than anything. I've never worked this way before.

Dave

musikwerks wrote:Interesting.

I've actually started doing drums last. I program a good, accurate guide and then lay everything else over it. I find that when I get the real drummer in at the end he has a much better feel as everything is there with him. We can also figure out a lot easier what kind of snare tuning the track needs in this context. Doesn't work with every drummer but the guys I use seem to be cool with it.

this. ^

[quote]The philosophy behind tracking bass last (as it was communicated to me) was to allow the bass "parts" to fit better with the guitar and piano parts. So it was more about the arrangements than anything else as I saw it.[/quote]

Aha - so it is more about composition / arranging than sonics...?
That's interesating - i assumed that the artists would have there songs worked out before it came to $1000 a day recording...

But this is really cool....like records made in the 70's (when they would experiment for 3 months....)

I record predominantly to a click so I'm not sure if this applies as much.

I prefer to do a rough guide of guitars, then drums.

Edit so it sits close to but not 100% on the click.

Then I'll do the bass to the guide guitars. And then the guitars over the bass. Remove or turn down the click a lot.

This could be totally stupid, but I feel as a guitarist I like to play the final tracks to a bass. But if there is not a proper guitar guide, the bass lacks dynamic.

The could be because of the click though................

i like recording people playing music together. :)

chribble wrote:Edit so it sits close to but not 100% on the click.

Isn't that a good way to completely destroy the feel of the drums?

I also like recording people together.. the whole 'people locking together' is such a hard thing to replicate with overdubs me thinks. When you are all recording together, sometimes.. when you squint your eyes, you can just hear the love in the recording. lol

Each to their own I guess.

Also depends on the style of music, how much (if any) editing you will need to do.

Futureman wrote:

chribble wrote:Edit so it sits close to but not 100% on the click.

Isn't that a good way to completely destroy the feel of the drums?

I also like recording people together.. the whole 'people locking together' is such a hard thing to replicate with overdubs me thinks. When you are all recording together, sometimes.. when you squint your eyes, you can just hear the love in the recording. lol

Each to their own I guess.

Futureman wrote:

chribble wrote:Edit so it sits close to but not 100% on the click.

Isn't that a good way to completely destroy the feel of the drums?

depends on the drummer, just because its human doesn't automatically mean it feels good. there are far more bad players than there are good ones.

Id rather quantize a crap drummer (if time/money/song style permits) because at least that in itself is a "feel", a metronomic feel.

but a drummer that has a great feel (very few and far between) I will leave well alone.

i tried drums last (funnily enough with one of Drummond's students) and apart from me messing up the blend of the cymbals, it worked really well

only works with certain drummers i think, some would need to 'feel' it for themselves rather than hang around a click

I then tracked bass after that, and i agree with it being better from an arrangement point of view - if the songs good i find it easy!