Turtlerock Forum

A very respected dj / producer i know has recently dumped logic 9(upgraded from 8) and gone to cubase

he said that it logic 9 had no top end, and to get his usual sound he was having to boost 7 to 9 db in the top end

Has anyone found logic 9 to be lacking in sound quality?

One thing i have found in the past is that when using anything digital, the overall sound quality can change in an instant due to software updates ,
usually for the worst as they try to cram more features in.

you'd think that a loss of top end would be a very very easy thing to test for and a very very unlikely "fault" for a DAW to have.

is boosting 7-9 dB in the top end a response to an issue well outside of the technical performance of the software?

No disrespect but I think your friend is full of it. That sort of error would have been shouted from the roof tops when it was first released. 7 to 9 db is massive.

The last 10 or so projects I completed have been in logic 8. I rarely boost the treble on the master buss. And certainly nowhere in the mix is anything in the 'treble' area being pushed by 7-9dB. Unless I'm trying to use an eq for a particular sculpting thing, certainly not for any compensation due to the logic 'sound'.

Maybe after producing so many slamming club tracks, your friend has had 7-9dB's roll off in his ear's top end?

well this guy has a lot of hits to his name and he is right on the money with his productions and engineering
actually id go so far to say that he would be in the top 3 best productions in australia at the moment with regards to dance music.

his complaint was whilst running the same sounds in the same song , just from different programs
that cubase sounded better clearer and "more space"


7 to 9 db in a DAW digital does not sound half as much as7 to 9 db in analog
but its still quite an adjustment to sit the same!

Actually Todd, the boosting was not needed in Logic 8, same as what you reported , 9 is apparently where the issue is

As a Logic user I would like to see your friend quantify this claim.

Prove that it actually is Logic 9, not just HIS installation of it. I think if this was a true problem it would be all over the other music forums by now.

It's a very substantial claim to make, so he should back it up with some proof.

I agree with him about logic not sounding right, I really don't like it, i never thought digital audio could sound so different between programs. Cubase sounds way better in my opinion, Samplitude even better again.

Dunno about the HF thing as I've never noticed that but the program does sound weird to me.

Horses for courses.

It's got to be a matter of taste.
A friend of mine in the UK is using Logic for techno.
His latest productions sound crisp and glossy.
Surely the final sound has more to do with the plug-ins and outboard you are using.

I've never liked Logic, don't like the editing, the workflow etc. I even have to teach it and I hate it. I've had all sorts of unexplainable errors to the point of refusing to work on logic projects and importing the tracks into protools or digital performer. That being said I doubt that it has such a terrible failure of frequency response, I would be looking to the particular installation, computer, room, speakers whatever.

ChrisW wrote:It's got to be a matter of taste.
A friend of mine in the UK is using Logic for techno.
His latest productions sound crisp and glossy.
Surely the final sound has more to do with the plug-ins and outboard you are using.

Chris it's a weird sound to me but when you mention "glossy" that's the type of sound every song I've heard from logic has, a weird sheen or glossy sound that is sort of synthetic sounding to me, just does'nt sound neutral or natural to me. Though yeah a lot of users may really like that sound.

All I'm gonna say is it's different.

I'd have to agree with Myles too that Logic makes no sense to me as in workflow.

I can't believe people say this crap.

Psychoacoustics is an interesting area.

heathen wrote:
Chris it's a weird sound to me but when you mention "glossy" that's the type of sound every song I've heard from logic has, a weird sheen or glossy sound that is sort of synthetic sounding to me,

Ahh well, could be.
As his music is all about a weird synthetic sheen, it's probably why it works for me.
No idea whether he is on Logic 8 or 9.

Mark

I run Logic 9 and no, I have not experience any top end loss, either in terms of hair or sound. I am not in Australia's top 3 producers.

Curious to know if this recording sounds super glossy?

http://itunes.apple.com/au/album/to-the ... d357413528

Tracked entirely in Logic.

musikwerks wrote:Curious to know if this recording sounds super glossy?

http://itunes.apple.com/au/album/to-the ... d357413528

Tracked entirely in Logic.

Is that one of your productions Kris?

Yeah, I tracked/produced it.

musikwerks wrote:Yeah, I tracked/produced it.

Man it's good! Sounds fantastic!

I love the energy in the mix.

Love the kick and toms in "Parkway Avenue". And the guitars.

I love the layered vocals in "Circles" and the Bass.

Sounds like Nashville to me : )

DwaneHollands wrote:

musikwerks wrote:Curious to know if this recording sounds super glossy?

http://itunes.apple.com/au/album/to-the ... d357413528

Tracked entirely in Logic.

Is that one of your productions Kris?

No it sounds excellent, seriously Kris after any analog processing the "soundglosssheen" type thing tends to disappear for me, I was really refering to stuff done entirely ITB with logic and logic plugs, maybe it's the plugs that do it I dunno.

This time I patched it into my good monitors for a listen and it really fills the lounge room, got big rooms in the new house too. Defineately has the Turtlerock sound to it as well, had a listen to it compared to another CD Rick mastered a while back pre Maya, ummmm I think I hear what the Maya does. :) :) :)

Thanks Dwane.

All lead vocals are Wagner U47 into Purple Audio Biz through API 525 compressor into MOTU 828mk2 into Logic. In the mix they went through a variety of outboard including GML, Neve, Retro, Shadow Hills etc.

Intro guitars on Parkway are Les Paul into Palmer Loadbox into Purple/API and then all other guitars (me) are Gretsch Duo Jet via the same signal path. Both guitars went through a Rocktron Voodu Valve and Velocity power amp before hitting the Palmer.

Circles BV's are a chap named Chris Eaton, recorded at his house in London and Leah Haywood (ex-Sony artist). Mojave MA200 into BAE 312 into Distressor. I don't know how Chris recorded his vox.

Drums on Parkway are audio to score in Logic and then total sample replacement, except for hats and ride, which I programmed. I just wasn't totally happy with the original performance or sounds on that one.

The bass, as mentioned is direct SSL into Logic. In the mix we ran it through a Neve 1084 and Retro STA Level ( I think... it could have been an 1176... bit fuzzy.)

I grew up listening to Gospel albums produced in Nashville by producers like Brown Bannister and Charlie Peacock, mix engineers like Shelly Yakus. Lots of Amy Grant and Michael W. Smith etc. Musicians like Dan Huff, Paul Leim, Jerry McPherson, Mike Brignardello, etc, etc. Nashville is a very kind compliment... I consider Nashville to be the holy grail.

No it sounds excellent, seriously Kris after any analog processing the "soundglosssheen" type thing tends to disappear for me, I was really refering to stuff done entirely ITB with logic and logic plugs, maybe it's the plugs that do it I dunno.

This time I patched it into my good monitors for a listen and it really fills the lounge room, got big rooms in the new house too. Defineately has the Turtlerock sound to it as well, had a listen to it compared to another CD Rick mastered a while back pre Maya, ummmm I think I hear what the Maya does. :) :) :)

Got ya. I really had my eyes opened to the sonic differences between hardware and plugs. We did use a lot of plugs but the bulk of the sounds were always run through hardware first. Comps like the STA Level and Eq like the GML are just superb.

As to the Maya... I don't know how to explain it but there's some kind of emotional response that it triggers. I know that sounds corny but it's true. Might not work for other genre's but for this music it was a perfect fit. Ask Rick sometime... he might be able to explain it.

mark rachelle wrote:A very respected dj / producer i know has recently dumped logic 9(upgraded from 8) and gone to cubase

he said that it logic 9 had no top end, and to get his usual sound he was having to boost 7 to 9 db in the top end

Has anyone found logic 9 to be lacking in sound quality?

One thing i have found in the past is that when using anything digital, the overall sound quality can change in an instant due to software updates ,
usually for the worst as they try to cram more features in.

I have logic 8 on my mac book and 9 on the latest G5 at work and have not heard a discernible difference. Must say i haven't really listened for one. I will have a detailed listening session after the holidays to hear what gives. On the different DAW topic, I have had the same files up on a mac with logic 8 and a PC with Neuendo in a great listening environment without hearing any difference.

musikwerks wrote: Musicians like Dan Huff, Paul Leim, Jerry McPherson, Mike Brignardello, etc, etc. Nashville is a very kind compliment... I consider Nashville to be the holy grail.

Dan Huff... man, what a player!

musikwerks wrote:
Got ya. I really had my eyes opened to the sonic differences between hardware and plugs. We did use a lot of plugs but the bulk of the sounds were always run through hardware first. Comps like the STA Level and Eq like the GML are just superb.

Ahh, ok. Can we revisit that argument about the Fairchild and the plug-in of the same name then?
(Just kidding)

Interested in the way this conversation is going as I'm about to jump into Logic for drum tracking purposes.
Haven't used Logic for ten years.
I'll be using all hardware mic/pre's and outboard, including eq's, comps.
My buddy who makes techno in the UK uses a lot of plug-ins (mostly NOT Logic plugs), but also a lot of good quality outboard too (Neve, Daking, Cranesong).

8-9db sounds like operator error to me.

i use logic almost exclusively, and have never heard of any sort of loss of that magnitude, ever. that said, I rarely use ITB mixes although I do group stuff like guitars to a single stereo output and sometimes use the logic EQ to roll off bottom end garbage.

what i'd suggest you ask your producer friend to do is generate a tone sweep (20-20) then get him to put it through a typical plugin chain, bounce it down and see what comes out the other end. run the tone through some VU's and see what sort of response you get. i'd be very surprised if the top end was down 8-9db. typically, this sort of speculative heresay is quickly quelled with the suggestion of a simple semi-scientific proposal.

Chris

As a matter of (potentially no) interest, I'm starting to know my monitors and room so well that I really notice the most subtle of changes to audio - I'm guessing that this is what we are all work towards no doubt.

For example, flicking my tape machine during tracking between 'input' and 'repro' yields the most difference IMHO. less sub, more bottom, less top, more distortion/noise. I remember hearing no difference at all. Now it's night and day. (note that i can only do this when the band isn't using headphones)

I hate protools with fervent passion, but can honestly say that the difference between DAW's is so miniscule that it's almost completely insignificant compared with what damage you can do using plugins/compressors/eq's etc etc.

I've seen people worrying about what this or that DAW is doing to their music, whilst they simultaneously destroy their audio via a signal path with extreme/unnecessary/completely misguided plugin chains and settings.

Got a logic session the other day - on a vocal chain was 3 EQ's, 3 compressors, a limiter, a de-esser, autotune, and a reverb... I mean, really??? Worse still the individual channels were set so low and the master was still peaking, god knows how. suffice to say, the whole thing sounded like ass.

Just my 2c.

Chris

sort of off the topic, but I too am constantly surprised by what is delivered to me to mix with a statement like "doesn't need too much done just a little tweak to give it that extra touch". Every single track duplicated and 'sidechain-ed compressed, eq'd", a different reverb on every channel, no groups, busses, auxes etc. 100 tracks for basically two gtrs, bass and vocals, clipping inside plugins, clipping on tracks, clipping on masters. Three tracks for every instrument because their mic choice/placement was terrible and they couldn't pick which sound was 'better'. Whole track sounds like rubbish regardless of performance and song quality... 'yeah, its almost there, I'll just undo everything you've done and it'll sound way better in 30 seconds..."

I've read a few medical magazines... I think I must be a doctor and able to perform minor heart surgery.

m

also thought I was the lone turtlerocker who got up at stupid o'clock to do web stuff... morning Chris!

there's no way i could get up at 5:30am - it's just not me.

where i am at the moment, it's 9:30pm... ;-0

Chris

ah... for some odd reason I get up around 4.30 everyday and then back to bed around 6 and sleep till 8... its the way my head works and I'm not touching it. I get a lot done during that hour and a half. where are you?