Turtlerock Forum

I have been asked to compile a collection of reference tracks covering a range of musical genres appealing to 18 to 35 year olds. I'm looking for songs that represent excellent engineering and production values within their genre, and, of course, sound good (that goes without saying; the sound is the most significant criteria). Geographical location of the source is not important.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. I have listed the genres below.

Thanks in advance!

GENRES
1) Pop (Youth)
2) Pop (Adult)
3) Adult contemporary
4) Dance/Club
5) Dance/Electronic
6) R&B/Hip-Hop
7) Rap
8) Rock (soft and hard)
9) Heavy Metal
10) Alternative/Indie
11) World
12) Folk
13) Bluegrass
14) Jazz
15) Classical/choral/chamber

Bob Katz's 'honor-roll' is well worth a look, even if you don't subscribe to his various philosophies. Albums rather than individual songs, and listed in terms of loudness rather than other general engineering qualities... so it may or may not be of use to you, but i've found it a really interesting list that has got me listening to recordings that i would've otherwise overlooked.

http://www.digido.com/honor-roll.html

wez wrote:Bob Katz's 'honor-roll' is well worth a look, even if you don't subscribe to his various philosophies.

Ah yes, good suggestion, Wez. Thanks! I'll also be needing some contemporary stuff; that list is yonks old...

GENRES

OK, ill start of by saying i have no interest in any of the genres below when it comes to stuff written recently...so i cant comment on them at all.
1) Pop (Youth)
2) Pop (Adult)
3) Adult contemporary
8) Rock (soft and hard)
12) Folk
13) Bluegrass



These are pretty easy to listen to references of.

6) R&B/Hip-Hop
7) Rap

Most records on the charts sounds pretty generic, and of similar quality, as long as they are not limited to all buggery. Chances are , if it has full as hell bass, it will be dynamic enough and not too limited.

Same as these,

9) Heavy Metal
10) Alternative/Indie

also pretty easy to find references for, most metal being written recently all sounds the F@#$ing same imo. I could come up with references for these, but again, i dont listen to them much anymore, and more importantly, nothing written recently. i do think their engineering standards were pretty much solidified in the early 2000s.



Now, with these, i am not sure by ur definition of recent, but i would recommend anything on the ECM label, as well as any material by Arvo Part (modern composer)...he was a sound engineer for classical radio, so his ear was amazing. Recordings by the Hilliard Ensemble also sound brilliant, but again, not very recent.
11) World
14) Jazz
15) Classical/choral/chamber


NOW....for what i do have half a clue about...electronic. Will come in 2 categories, stuff which has limited runs, and is strictly vinyl, release, and stuff which is available as WAV, mp3 and vinyl.


I'll say that for modern stuff, check out the genre "dubstep", pretty sure it will be hard to have not come into contact with the term.

A particularly awesome record is:

Balkansky - Kuker

Won an engineering award over in Europe. It is truly brilliant piece of music and engineering. Plenty of field recordings, electronics, and such.

For innovation, engineering in drum and bass check out a German artist called Current Value. Some releases by him:

Current Value - You Can't Play God EP
Current Value - Back to the Machine

On the hardcore edge of things, check out anything by DJ Hidden. His alias "The Outside Agency", check out this:

Outside Agency, The - Surreal / Chaos Theory (in particular the track Surreal)

On the IDM tip, check out these record labels:

Planet Mu (usually always on the cutting edge of new sounds, and most of their records will be the best sounding in their genre)
Tympanik Audui (conceptual IDM, with an emphasis on cleaner, crisper sounds)
A particularly noteworthy release in the IDM/Breakcore category is Xanopticon - Liminal Space. Not particularly very friendly on the ears, but just incredible.
Also on the more extreme side of things, check out any recordings by Venetian Snares...he's been around the electronic game since it became breakcore...and balances good engineering with extremity fairly well...most engineers will say his stuff sounds harsh...but thats just the genre.


For techno, check out Stephemn Bodzin:

Stephan Bodzin - Liebe Ist...

To expand a bit more, for most genres, excellent examples of engineering were alot easier to come by imo, these days, it's very difficult to point out anything in particular that sounds incredible.
I could really think harder about this, but this is what pops out straight off the top of my head. Also, alot of electronic music, sounds like shit, and is supposed to sound like shit (or it sounds wrong). Most house music is fairly easy to find references for, it mostly sounds excellent.

Maybe a good one for Electronic:- Yello ,"Planet Dada" from "The Eye" 2003 very high production values and engineering (Like anything from Yello)

Electronic: Anything by the group "Sphongle"

They do psybient, and psytrance stuff, always impeccably engineered...I would put it ontop of every other reference i have listed above for electronic.

10) Alternative/Indie, Mark Hollis self titled. 2 M49's set up in XY and not moved for 3 months. All the instruments and vox positioned in front of them according to where they were to sit in the stereo spectrum...

An AMAZING album in every way.


Also recommended Talk Talks spirit of eden and Laughing stock, post rock masterpieces.

walding wrote:10) Alternative/Indie, Mark Hollis self titled. 2 M49's set up in XY and not moved for 3 months. All the instruments and vox positioned in front of them according to where they were to sit in the stereo spectrum...

An AMAZING album in every way.


Also recommended Talk Talks spirit of eden and Laughing stock, post rock masterpieces.

I'm going to buy that album for sure. Has my kind of engineering style written all over it.

M

Great Albums!
I was obsessed with them for a while - especially the solo album - Such an amazing sonic gem to get totally lost in - how great is that harmonica !!!!
but Mark's voice gets to me after a while and i can't really listen any more - it grates now instead of greats - but as far as the marriage of sound and emotion it doesnt get any better -

Hi Greg,

You're asking about individual tracks right, not albums?

A couple of suggestions:

'Crossfire' by Brandon Flowers, produced by Brendan O'Brien & only recently released (on 'Flamingo') is a great pop song with awesome production.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AhU12zC8fc&ob=av2e

For Jazz, 'It Could Happen to You' by Diana Krall is my favourite off her 2006 album 'From This Moment On' (Tommy LiPuma, Al Schmitt), but you could choose anything from the album. Al Schmitt is the engineer's engineer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE2Sxhq6FGo

Cheers,
Glenn

mylesgm wrote:

walding wrote:10) Alternative/Indie, Mark Hollis self titled. 2 M49's set up in XY and not moved for 3 months. All the instruments and vox positioned in front of them according to where they were to sit in the stereo spectrum...

An AMAZING album in every way.


Also recommended Talk Talks spirit of eden and Laughing stock, post rock masterpieces.

I'm going to buy that album for sure. Has my kind of engineering style written all over it.

M

I don't think you will be disappointed. Also check out the last 2 talk talk albums I mentioned as well...

for dance bass a reputable engineer i know has always used flaming june by BT

14 Jazz, Kind of blue, A love supreme should do it nicely

For (contemporary) jazz, let me raise a hand for Way Out West – the past two albums 'Old Grooves for New Streets' and 'Effects of Weather' mixed by the very Myles Mumford. Brilliant technically, musically and in originality (combining African & Vietnamese influences).

Dance/electronic... I really liked the Psyharmonics sounds from the '90s.. and with Ollie Olsen's work having real depth to the sound and arrangements.

For classical... I can't look past the Decca 'Legends' release of Richard Strauss 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' (Karajan conducting the Vienna Philharmonic, 1959-60). The whole piece – not merely the intro everyone knows. Incredible dynamic range, richness and imaging. This is the 24/96 transfer from the original master tapes (even Decca's digital standards were 18bit/48k), with some great pics and reading about the sessions (custom 6 ch mixer, mics: KM56, M50 and M49, with the pipe organ overdubbed ('overlayed') without the existence of a multi-track machine).

Out of more modern pop-rock sort of stuff I always enjoy listening to LIVE and find myself referencing against lots of their sounds, even when not in the same genre.....Some songs are effected and squized like crazy, but when they're producing a serious song, they do it pretty sweet.

These are select tracks from albums that I find really interesting to listen to. I should point out that a lot of this probably leans towards bands I like rather than classic examples of the genres:

1) Pop (Youth)
- '1901' by Phoenix
2) Pop (Adult)
- 'She Is' by The Fray
4) Dance/Club:
- 'Warriors Dance' by The Prodigy
5) Dance/Electronic
- 'When I Grow Up' by Fever Ray. Vocalist from The Knife on her own side project. Really interesting sounds! Not a dance track but good for electronic.
6) R&B/Hip-Hop
- 'Smash Lies' by Matisyahu
8) Rock
Soft Rock: 'Exhausted' by Joseph Arthur. A similar kind of feel to Beck.
Heavy: 'Know Your Enemy' by Rage Against The Machine
9) Heavy Metal
- 'Deathbed Athiest' by Norma Jean.
10) Alternative/Indie
- '21@12' by Hot Hot Heat
11) World:
- 'Onwards' by Afro Celt Sound System
- 'Kothbiro' by Ayub Ogada. This one is a particularly haunting recording.
- 'Ye Ye Ye' by Geoffrey Oryema. Got a bit of a Tom Waits feel to it
- 'The Bedbugs Bite' Zawoze & Brook. World vocalists mixed with modern beats
All of those can be found on the 'Long Way Down' soundtrack, put out by Real World.
12) Folk:
- 'The Blowers Daughter' Damien Rice's album 'O'. I think I remember lending it to you when you were at JMC.
- 'Annachie Gordon' by The Unthanks
14) Jazz:
- 'Whatcha Doin Tonight' by Royal Crown Revue. Modern Swing.
- 'How Do I Let A Good Man Down?' by Sharn Jones and the Dap Kings. More Soul than Jazz but worth a mention.

edit: removed genre

Some nice choices there but you may want to reconsider this genre

obutcher wrote:3) Adult Contemporary:
- 'Californication' by Red Hot Chilli Peppers

I'm not fully versed in what Adult Contemporary really means... I'm going to look it up now. Apologies for any confusion!

Well you might be right... but I've never seen the chilli peppers as AC.

I can just see the reluctance on flea's face as they get up to accept the award for Best AC act at the grammy's.

What a hoot!

I think that you missed an important genre - There are some beautiful contemporary motion picture soundtracks out there with excellent production that would be very relevant to that age bracket. Danny Elfman, Thomas Newman (the soundtrack from "A series of Unfortunate Events" for example) will give you a goldmine of world class production.

good point Steve. A group called Dead can dance comes to mind for soundtrack work imho (They may even be AC )..... I'd hate to pigeon hole them.

A big THANK YOU to everyone who suggested music for this project! It has been greatly appreciated...

I have since purchased dozens of CDs based on these recommendations; I've managed to get many of them, a few more to source yet but time is running out.

I'm now going through the process of listening, selecting tracks, ripping and so on. There are some great sounding recordings here, so... thanks again!

- Greg Simmons

since this topic was posted, my mind keeps returning to the question of "quality recordings" and what that means in my mind. Whilst this has generated lots of interesting thinking there was never anything conclusive that was clear enough to report.

Never the less, my thinking always returns to Sparkehorse's 'Its a Wonderful Life'.

For me, it is a stand out album that is a feast of songwriting, textures, sounds and emotion.

It sums up the dilemma that I think I've concluded about my feelings about 'quality recordings' and that is my inability to disconnect the emotional or heartfelt impact that a piece of music can have on me, from a clinical assessment of its technical merits.

It is a failing i'm happy to live with.

For those who aren't aware of this album or Sparklehorse's ( Mark Linkous ) brief but burning existence, I'd highly recommend it.

Here's an afterthought.... You need gear to make music, but gear doesn't make the music

I'm not sure how Boards of Canada got overlooked here under the Genre 'Electronic'... they've hugely influenced the current trend (back) towards processing and reprocessing using tape and analogue gear. Their track engineering is out of this world, as is their music in general. 'Campfire Headphase' is a good place to start or 'Music Has a Right to Children if you want to look a bit further back.

Hip-Hop/ Rap and the true difference between: Hip-Hop came from the gutter and even with all the best gear on hand it should retain it's grimey, slightly rough-cut edge to retain what it is, otherwise you get 'Rap' which is your overproduced mainstream cr#p like 50 Cent, other unmentionables rocking autotune etc. For a true reference point of mastery in Hip-Hop engineering look to early Wu-Tang albums 'Enter the 36 Chambers' and 'Liquid Swords'. The style of production these albums influenced in Hip-Hop is immeasurable.

Just to throw a few other albums/tracks out there from various genres that stand out in both musicianship and engineering excellence:

Portishead - Dummy (album - Trip-Hop)

Beck - Seachange (album - mellow "stargazing" Rock)

Shackleton - The Branch is Weak' (track - Deep Dubstep)

Rusko - Woo Boost (track - commercial Dubstep)

Caribou - Odessa (Electronic, best track AND film clip of last year IMO)

Lorn - (Electronic - Future Beat/ Dubstep - all)

...This is going to take too long so I'm just going to list names that I know are consistently excellently produced/engineered and you can suss them out from this list if you wish. Other may just discover some new music they like. These are all contemporary:

Flying Lotus, Antipop Consortium, Mr. Scruff, Mr. Oizo, Joker, Mount Kimbie, Chemical Brothers, Daft Punk, Venetian Snares, Tipper, El-P, Blockhead, Mux Mool, Opiuo, Dizz1, Sigur Rós, Radiohead, Aphex Twin, Sage Francis, Cannibal Ox, Ugly Duckling, Mr. Lif, DJ Shadow, Eyedea, Slug, Blackalicious, Deltron, Phi Life Cypher, Jehst, Gorillaz, Automato, Pharcyde, Beasties, Cypress Hill, Public Enemy, Darc Mind, Radioactive Man, The Prodigy, Massive Attack, Dave Seaman, Phil K, Nick Warren, Squarepusher, Prefuse 73, Coldcut, Hot Chip, Leftfield, Dimlite, Yeasayer, Nosaj Thing, Cinematic Orchestra, Plaid, Tortoise.

I got Down My Way by Angus and Julia Stone this weekend, I think it's great. Yes it's the big album this year, so not really an obscure find. But if all young people pop sounded that good I'd be happy.

I'd agree with Tweaks that the comparison between Wu Tang's first album and say 50cent is pretty telling. In the 2000s, all that money went into hiphop and it got over cooked (for our ears I guess). I also reckon that your list Tweaks is maybe a bit long when it comes to early 90s hiphop acts that were consistently well engineered, even though I like the guys you mentioned.

Regarding pop music for American pre teens (I'm making up my own categories) I thought that Taylor Swift's Love Story song was just perfectly executed. That was the formula down pat, it was a friggin beast!

rob wrote:since this topic was posted, my mind keeps returning to the question of "quality recordings" and what that means in my mind. Whilst this has generated lots of interesting thinking there was never anything conclusive that was clear enough to report.

Never the less, my thinking always returns to Sparkehorse's 'Its a Wonderful Life'.

For me, it is a stand out album that is a feast of songwriting, textures, sounds and emotion.

It sums up the dilemma that I think I've concluded about my feelings about 'quality recordings' and that is my inability to disconnect the emotional or heartfelt impact that a piece of music can have on me, from a clinical assessment of its technical merits.

It is a failing i'm happy to live with.

For those who aren't aware of this album or Sparklehorse's ( Mark Linkous ) brief but burning existence, I'd highly recommend it.

Here's an afterthought.... You need gear to make music, but gear doesn't make the music

Hi Rob
I have a few Sparklehorse albums and really like the moods he sets. "Good morning spider" is a fav. And the one before that??
I didn't realise until now that Mark Linkous took his own life in March this year. What a loss.

what tweakeasy said...+1000.

greg, you will especially love all of Shackleton's output...simply amazing.

jkhuri44 wrote:what tweakeasy said...+1000.

greg, you will especially love all of Shackleton's output...simply amazing.

Yeah mate I read your contributions earlier in the thread and it seems we share pretty similar sound tastes. Have you checked out Dimlite and Lorn?

This Dimlite track and the 80's-drenched film clip does good things for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9PWq3ZqPuE

This is the Shackleton track that I mentioned previously:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSgojSE9xDI

And if you haven't discovered Gonjasufi via his team-up with Flying Lotus then hopefully you've heard him of his own accord. I'm sickeningly full of praise for this dude. Such a cool story behind him if you want to read up on it a bit! Rad attitude towards music and life in general IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_N63b2Tk-A

defo heard of all the Fly Lo crew...in 2 minds about that stuff...i feel alot of the time, it's like half baked ideas...with ridiculously swung programming...

some cut's off Cosmogramma are mad, like Zodiac Shit...wow. but most of it i'm not feeling.

Gonjasufi is alright too...again, some good some bad stuff.

I have heard of Lorn, but not listened to yet, i think i should...soon Have not heard of Dimlite at all, thanks for the recommendations!

No worries, Mount Kimbie and Hudson Mohawke are two more.

My fav Mount Kimbie track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hTN19x1DyM

Rather organic feel to the production a la Boards of Canada.

I also like Nero for that more "classic" Dubstep feel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oes2c3i0Ddw

This is a definitive anthem in the Dubstep world, both commercial and underground, transcending the line into Tech Minimal (sort of). What a video too! Can't look past this if you want to reference current Electronic, it's release caused waves. Benga & Coki - 'Night'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNStVlJWy88

I'll stop semi-hijacking this thread now, though I didn't get to share Moderat, Fedaden, Prefuse 73 or Nosaj Thing.