Turtlerock Forum

Hi, we're a LOOOONG way away from (possibly ever) affording the Neve Genesys desk that we really want, and our long-toothed Mackie 24/8 just has to go (despite being in remarkable nick for its age).

So I'm almost-but-not-quite ready to order a Toft 32 as a mid-range solution. Does anyone have any experience with these boards? How are the EQs? Any quirks I should know about?

My experience has been with installing one at the VCA studios (easy and lots of connectivity) and using one at Soundpark. The soundpark one is used everyday by all sorts of people and I reckon it has not stood up well. Its unreliable, seems like it would be difficult to service, easily broken and all in all I dont like it. And I've never got passed the unreliable and frustrating point to hear the sound of the console and it evaluate it from that point. When I'm at sound park I just patch the outboard mic pres straight to tool and only monitor two channels through the console.
What that means for you is anybodies guess but if I was buying a console I would really evaluate why you want it (routing, lots of pres/eq, summing etc) and then decide that maybe its not the best option if you can't get something killer.

M

mylesgm wrote:I reckon it has not stood up well. Its unreliable, seems like it would be difficult to service, easily broken and all in all I dont like it.

Early ones are known to be very dodgy. A certain TAFE (not associated with me!) bought one and had a lot of trouble with it. QC has reportedly improved. Perhaps Myles' experience is with an early one... or maybe not.

We have one at work we use most days of the week. I don't feel like we've fully used it yet as it's only a few months old, however it seems to work very well. The EQ is alright so long as you don't crank it too far and having plenty of Aux's is super handy. I personally don't really like the faders as they move too easily for me, I like there to be a bit of resistance (or feel?) to the touch. Preamps aren't anything special, but they'd be an improvement on the mackie's.

Other than that, it sounds nice and clean and has VU meters (handy!). Pretty versatile desk.

There seems to be a question in regards to reliability with these consoles.

Also the following is a quote from Jim Williams, a very respected audio tech.

A Toft 32 will have a lot of buss noise. That noise you can't get rid of as it's permanently assigned to the stereo mix buss from the monitor inputs. Although the main inputs can be pulled off the mix buss via the mix switch, the monitor input pan buffers are permanently assigned as the monitor mute switch is placed before it.

The other main complaint is the lack of dynamic headroom on the stereo sum amps. There is a sweet spot at 0 VU. Push it into the red and it breaks up. Lower it and the noise floor eats you up.

There are fixes that I posted on that alternative web site, you know, the one that rhymes with "earbutts". It's a complete master module modification including the sum amps, monitoring and solo.
That mod allows you to push the stereo mix hard into pegged red land without break up. THD drops to .003% at +28 dbu outputs. The noise floor also drops but is still dependent on the monitor sends. To fix that, replace IC10 on the input channels with a National LME49720NA opamp. Add a couple of 22 pf caps across the feedback resistors and a pair of .1 uf mono ceramic caps from pin's 4 and 8 to ground. That will lower the console noise several db's. Replace the rest of the 072 opamps and the total console noise is very low.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

So it can be modded into a good console but you need to allow for that in your budget.

My feeling is, if you need to mod a new console, you might be better of buying a an older modular console and refurbing that.

As far as I know these consoles are not modular, so speaking from a techs point of view, if a channel goes down it's major work and downtime to repair. There's nothing like being able to remove a single module for repair while the session goes on.

Just some food for thought.

Greg

Hmmm, really great input, thanks everyone.

The sad fact is that with the budget we have ($15K) we simply can't afford the analog desk we want.

I'm starting to wonder if a c24 is a better short-term option. It provides the control surface and analog routing options that my engineer needs.

The alternative is (as pointed out) buying and refurbing an old (quality) desk, but that is MUCH easier said than done. (If anyone knows of a desk that can be brought up to scratch for under $15K let me know).

There's been several desks up on gearslutz including a lovely refurbished MCI. Theres also Mat Robins (13th beach) sound workshop 34c which I believe was refurbished before he replaced it with a neve 51. If you are seriously looking for a console there are a lot of good options about.

Hookemeister wrote:As far as I know these consoles are not modular, so speaking from a techs point of view, if a channel goes down it's major work and downtime to repair. There's nothing like being able to remove a single module for repair while the session goes on.

+1... I would never ever have a non-modular console in a commercial facility (and for my own sanity, not in my home studio either).

a tech i know rather well also hates them (actually he hates everything built after 1975 so...)

maybe mick w. could have rob s. mod them before they go out . it's not unprecedented.

Manning wrote:The sad fact is that with the budget we have ($15K) we simply can't afford the analog desk we want.

Really? Lately i've been kicking myself for not being able to afford some of the desks getting around in that price range.

Is Darren Cordeux's MCI still for sale? Sure a console like that will need ongoing maintenance but so will any console worth owning.

wez wrote:

Manning wrote:The sad fact is that with the budget we have ($15K) we simply can't afford the analog desk we want.

Really? Lately i've been kicking myself for not being able to afford some of the desks getting around in that price range.

Ah, the context got lost a bit there - what I meant was that the desk we really want (Neve Genesys) costs $90K and we simply can't afford it - our max budget is only $15K.

As far as older but still good desks in our price range, I haven't seen any in a while. (Of course I might not be looking in the right places.)

mylesgm wrote:There's been several desks up on gearslutz including a lovely refurbished MCI. Theres also Mat Robins (13th beach) sound workshop 34c which I believe was refurbished before he replaced it with a neve 51. If you are seriously looking for a console there are a lot of good options about.

I'm off there now - thanks.

What about the M700 Angus is selling?:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/australi ... h-bay.html

peat wrote:What about the M700 Angus is selling?:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/australi ... h-bay.html

Holy crap - I've been an sporadic visitor to GS for two years and never knew there was an Aust/NZ section. I've only ever looked at the general classifieds (where there is never anything from Australia).

For what it's worth, from someone who admittedly doesn't have much to compare to I did just want to add one vote of confidence for the Tofts. I run an ATB24, and while it does have some quirks I'm not so sold on, I love the versatility of it, and really enjoy mixing on it. In summary, I think considering the price you can generally get these for I feel they are pretty decent value. As stated, the v2 onward are probably the way to go.. but mine is a v1 and I haven't had any 'repair' issues with it (other than a minor LED fix that was easily handled under warranty).

As pointed in out in the quote from Jim, after using it for a while I also found similar issues with undesirable noise, and located it to how I was using the group section mostly. I'm sure its multi-purpose design is an asset to some, but I must admit I have been considering looking for a mod to bypass part of this monitor/tape send functionality from the group section. This would be nice (for me), but after using it for a while and learning more about how to set it up better for my needs, I'm really pleased with the results. I'm sure investing in other mods could improve it, but that's probably the same for anything to some degree?

Also, I did want to add it is 'partially' modular.. in that the channels come out in banks of 8, so you will lose a large section of your desk, but can keep functioning should a channel go down and send back just the offending bank.

Having said all that... I must admit this particular thread or similar has popped up a couple of times and piqued my interest since getting my ATB.. and at least on the forum I don't think these have moved yet?

http://www.turtlerockmastering.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4948&p=40990&hilit=auditronics#p40990

As mentioned, if you're not in a rush there have been some great desks going for really good prices in the last year or so around TRM.com..

anguswoodhead wrote:Have you considered Audient?
With some discount they're within your budget.
Sure it's no Genesys but gotta be better than Toft.

http://www.awave.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=audient&osCsid=4bqnabqpkcfcb8k8jiknnrvek4&osCsid=4bqnabqpkcfcb8k8jiknnrvek4&x=0&y=0

Nah, we need 32+ channels and a patch bay, and that puts us into the mid-$40s retail for the Audient. Even with a very hefty discount we're not going to get anywhere near $15K.

anguswoodhead wrote:

Manning wrote:Nah, we need 32+ channels and a patch bay, and that puts us into the mid-$40s retail for the Audient. Even with a very hefty discount we're not going to get anywhere near $15K.

Fair enough.
The 24 ch version does have more than 48 inputs at mixdown but it is exxy and with a patch bay.....
It's never going to be $15k.

You're welcome to come spend a day on the Ta@#$% if you want.
Bring a PT project and send 32 Ch's thru the console and have a play / mix.
Test out the routing and EQ etc.
See if you like the feel of it.
No charge of course.

Did you download the album linked on GS for a listen?

LOL I won't be touching anything - I'm good at playing, composing and arranging but I'm the world's worst audio engineer. Seriously, no false modesty, I'm awful. Marc (my business partner in the studio) is the knob twiddler (and a damn fine one).

Only just got home so will download the album now.

I know this is a long shot but worth a look are the numerous Amek Recall consoles for sale. They are mighty fine sonically with plenty of options and big enough all but the biggest mix projects where you could sum some outputs from your DAW anyway. VCA dynamics, gates and automation. The cost of transporting from the US is around $3000, but i have not looked into what taxes you might have to pay. I had one in my studio for a few years and had no probs. I saw one a day or two ago advertised from a church in the US for 2 grand but it had 2 channels down( can't find it today though). Here is one at soundbrocker for 8 grand:
http://www.soundbroker.com/CONSOLE/?listingid=45551

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amek-RECALL-FOH ... 0838197680

Or check out some of the other us boards. Here's a cadac that would absolutely slay the Ta@#$% or pretty much any other midrange desk and I'm sure you could get it here for under 15k. Might need some negotiation but call Mick at mixmasters for some advice on shipping something like this, he might even broker it for you.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadac-58-Frame- ... 3596wt_936

There's also this studer which again would kill that Ta@#$% (and much else) and the guy regularly has consoles of this sort listed and shipped all over the world.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Studer-980-Cons ... _560wt_936

There's no way I'd be plonking down on a toft when its an absolute buyers market when it comes to Large format analog consoles.

M

mylesgm wrote:
There's no way I'd be plonking down on a toft when its an absolute buyers market when it comes to Large format analog consoles.

M

Myles - we have now come to exactly the same conclusion (largely due to input from yourself and others, so thanks for that).

We've got $15K in cash to spend right now, so we are on the prowl for something good. Looking at a few things on MixMasters and other places.

I admit I'm hesitant (but not opposed) to buying from the US as it will be "sight unseen".

I reckon sight/unseen is a little daunting but if you do your homework and if you can speak to the seller directly (on the phone if possible or skype) you will get a vibe from them and you can take it from there. Many times I've been interested in a sale, had a brief email conversation and backed out because of the vibe. Other times I've had the conversation and realised that my worries were unfound and have been happy with the purchase. Of course I've been burnt a couple of times but out of hundred of transactions thats not bad. You might also be able to get a third person to look at the console if you know someone close by. ie if its in New York I'm sure someone from this board would know someone who could drop by if you didn't.

Seriously though shop around and if you are buying local next to nobody else is so drive a reasonable bargain. What was worth 20k on the secondhand market 10yrs or even 5 yrs ago is definitely not worth that now and though that sucks for the sellers its just the way it is.

Things to watch out for when buying second hand from my limited experience of consoles:
switches!!! These can go bad depending on design and can be awful to replace.
Modularity so that repair will be easier.
Patchbay and patchbay connectors. Some patchbays get very overworked and therefore fail or are intermittent so be aware and consider the possibly you need to replace them. consider also the cost of the connecting it to everything else. If its on ELCOs and there are none with the console then that could be expensive.
Redundant power supplies. Useful if available.
phantom power. Is it global and is it the correct voltage and amp rating for your setup. A previous studio I worked at had an oddity with the phantom which meant My tlm170s wouldn't work but all the other mics did. I think the 48v was actually 44 or something similar.
balanced or unbalanced direct outs, buss outs, inserts etc. Might or might not be important depending on your situation and maybe easily resolved if it is.

Well you probably know all that but there it is.

Myles

Yes we did know most of that, but it's always worth hearing again.

Neither Marc (my engineer/business partner) nor myself are handy with soldering irons. Fortunately we have on-demand access to someone who builds valve preamps/poweramps (hifi) for a semi-living, so we're covered in that regard.

No time for a trip to US in the next six months sadly - it would take a week of my time which I just can't spare (I have a non-music business to run as well).

We've got a lucrative gig coming up early next year (funded by a foreign government - children's education stuff) so it will be worth our time to get something decent.

The hunt continues...

Awhile back I did an educational product for an indonesian company, English language books for schools with accompanying CDs. 12 years of books, 4 books per year, 8 CDs per book. I even had to do some of the speaking as there were large conversations in the later years that had several voices. I called the company a few months after delivering the masters to make certain everything was fine. They told me yes all was fine, they were very happy and now there were more than 150,000 of those books in schools. Does that mean I went platinum? I do laugh to think that there may be people out there who will end up speaking english with my odd sounding accent...

Do they make Platinum schoolbooks? Sounds like you deserve one

Our project will be in Turkish. There will be occasional English bits, but 99% in Turkish.

It will be a challenge, to say the least! (It's a beautiful sounding language though).

yeah Turkish is great and Turkey is a great place to visit (great people, food, night life and scenery) so maybe you can work that into your contract...

I go there every year - my (utterly beautiful) wife is from Ankara.

However I insist that we - an unheard-of studio in northern Sydney with no track record - got the gig entirely on our own merits. The fact that my wife works for the Turkish Government is pure coincidence.

I've good family friends in Izmir all musicians and actors, such a great place to be. Jealous you get to go there so often..

We may have to trade contacts at some point. I don't know that many people in the music scene sadly, however we have loads of senior contacts in government circles due to my wife and her parents. We've been making good contacts within TRT (the national broadcaster) recently as well.

hi Manning, I'd forgot about this conversation till I began planning my trip to Turkey on our way home form Africa... when are you heading to Turkey next?

Was meant to be September but will now probably be mid October or early November.

We wanted to have my wife's album finished first, but it is taking months longer than planned.

Starting to get a bit cold by then...

hah! we'll probably tag team though we are only there for a week... pm me your email.