Turtlerock Forum

Gents,
I am so into passive mixing and the results which compare to mixing on a killer console.
No matter what anyone says it makes a big difference to my ears in all the right sonic aspects compared to the ITB one dimensional outcome.
I have one of robs Passive mix plus (on steroids) boxes and use various Pre's for make up gain.
All these mic pre's sound so very different - and I was wondering what others are using for make up gain.
ATM - I am in love with a pair of valve Rola 77MkIII'3 as make up gain.
I also use Electrodynes, custom valve pre's etc - but the Rola's are astonishing and HUGE sounding.
When I want a touch of API - I just plug in my API2500 for the API flavour after the Rola's.
But curiosity leads me to ask what others are doing.

What are you guys using - and for what genre do you use certain pre's?

I'm glad you started this thread Chris. Really interested to hear what people are doing in regards to this method.
Have you thought about making a makeup gain unit with different transformers to switch between.
Are there any mixes you can link that have the Rola's across it?

cheers

Hey Ben
I've got a 8 x Jensen transformer box - but have not even considered putting them across the mix.
Is anyone using CAPI VC528ST2+ Line amps ?
I was thinking of getting a pair to add after whatever pre's I am using for make-up gain.

Sorry - I dont have any mixes to put up, as I would need to do a comparison / with and without Rola's to make sense (and also I'm snowed under for months ahead).

2 x CAPI VP28's are enroute just for this purpose. The VP28 combines mic/pre with filter and console style gain stage.
I tried my API512's and wasn't that happy with the results.
I mostly use my Q8 MM100's, which are the business.
I would love to try more mic/pre's, but I'm a bit overwhelmed with pre's - mostly Q8's.
The ROLA thing sounds tasty. Also I've always wanted a pair of Spectrasonics.

Snowed under for months? I wish.

Chris - that looks like an even better way to go, and get 2 pre's at the same time for not much more $.
Are you DIYing the build or getting them already assembled?

After a lot of procrastinating I finally finished my passive summing mixer last week.
I've only done some very moderate testing, so not sure what pre's work best with it yet. I'm very interested to see what you guys think.
I think I remember saying that you were really enjoying some custom valve comps with a lot of make up gain before Chris? A preference for tube units popping up maybe?

When you say passive mix on steroids, what extra options have you got in there?

Alistair - Yeah I seem to like the massive big open sound with certain valve class A pre's, and when I need a bit more bight or vibe, the API and later quad eight pre's (AM10's) do the job amazingly.
I also love the Electrodyne 711's/712's on it too.
Its so much more creative way to mix - I think about what sort of "console" sound I want and mix into the correct pre's that give me the flavour.
The "on steroids" box from Rob has 16 channels/high quality headphone amp/mono switch / 2x speaker switchers/mute / mix bus insert and a pair of meters all in the one box.
Really great investment as it really starts to turn all of my vintage EQ's into a mixer - saves on buying headphone amps, speaker switches etc etc.
I also have one of his standard 16 ch passive mixers that is made to couple to the mix plus - giving me 32 channels.
Cant find a pic of the mix plus on Robs website - maybe he can throw one up if he's got the time ?

I'm getting them ready built from here:
http://www.customanalogservices.com/vp28

which comes recommended.

Cool Chris- I seem to remember Rob posting a pic of something similar on here once, so I think I've seen the unit.
I have also built a monitor controller per Rob's diagram in AT a while back and have a headphone amp from JLM (which I think Joe might use) so it sounds like I have the tightarse version of what you have!

I will admit that you raving about the control and options you had with passive summing was one of the motivations to try it out- I really love the idea of being able to start a mix with a certain colour or flavour, and to work with that the whole way through.

The handy thing is, without having to change the mix, and by just repatching a couple of cables, you can mix thru different mic/pre combinations.
I did a mix a few months ago with Q8, Api512 and Api 312 mic/pre's.
The Q8's sounded biggest, warmest, so I've stuck with them since.

Yeah, very cool. I guess frequency response on pre's starts to become even more important!

These Rola's have such a huge frequency response.
I was expecting my Electrodynes to blow them out of the water - but the Rola's killed all the competition.
But I would like a pair of API pre's to do the rockier/more edgy stuff.
Smartest move I ever made was to ditch my Neve and Quadeight consoles and go to a passive mix bus and have lots of killer pre's n EQ's /comps for each task and a designable "console" mix bus flavour to mix into.
You really get to know how good a pre is when you put stereo mixes through them as opposed to always judging their sonic capabilities when doing solo tracking tasks.

Yeah Chris - I'm in your camp, I'll buy em made - I am OK on soldering but shit at the nerdy electronic stuff.

What are you using for jazz stuff Chris? The Rolas? People seem to think jazz music needs 'super clean' but I really like a sound that is a bit more coloured and thick in the low mids. Definitely not API mid rangey though.

My next thing is to go to tape after summing instead of back into the DAW.
Just bought a Revox B77.

Some of the nicest sounding jazz sonically I've heard was recorded on Helios (Talent Studios, Norway, ECM REcords).
Sparkling on cymbals.
I was just thinking this morning.... the only thing I regret and the biggest mistake I ever made was selling a couple of early Helios Mic/Pre/EQ's in the late 90's - before all this summing thing.

man, most ECM stuff sounds bloody awesome. There is some killer sounding jazz i've been hearing on radio 92.2 ...didnt write down the names, but it didnt sound anywhere near "transparent" or "clean"...but it did put a smile on my face

better gtfo before i derail.

Very cool! I'd love to experiment with 2 track tape after summing, and have often thought about it, but just don't have the space at the moment (not to mention I'm up 3 flights of stairs!)

My favourite jazz guy is Joe Ferla, and he swears by Neve for tracking. Obviously the history of the music is chock full of valve pres with limited gain, noisy old electronics and tape as well, so there's plenty of precedence for not being 'nice' all the time.

Of course, in jazz, you are mostly recording players who have 'a sound', and usually a bleedin great sound.
You don't hear many jazz producers complaining about the drummer overplaying the hi-hats.

Has anyone used the 'JCF Levr' units for make up gain?

If I was doing a Jazz record I would use the Rola's or my valve custom pre's or even Electrodynes - no API stuff.
Clean modern pre's I would not touch for the task.
Something else to mention here - I reckon all mix buses act as a sort of "glue" when combining all the elements - something valve pre's do wonders with - as long as it is super clean point to point class A valve.
Most people think valve sounds "old" or "retro" - but that could not be further from the truth.
One of the main reasons that passive mixing sounds so much better (apart from the outboard trannies etc) is that we are basically making a pure path/point to point wiring / no chips / no crap - just pure audio without any compromises.
I'm really not interested in the Avalon/SSL type characterless pre's - the glue factor is totally missing.
In the past I (and some other mix engineers) used to mix on my Neve with my custom valve pre/compressors across the mix bus (using very little compression) - and everyone came back to me with the same thing - that killer glue factor makes it all sound so much better.
They used to beg me to borrow them!
Something the Electrodynes and Q8's do a good job of too.
I also would never use a Neve pre for this task as to my ears the outcome would be "mud"
Ive spent decades mulling over mix bus character, and its affect on the whole.

i have a MCI-jh110 head sitting here...on this topic, i really should do something with it....

Give someone head....

I may be totally wrong, but I thought the amp cards in the summing section of a Neve console were the same as in the preamp? Just the preamps had dual cards as they needed a lot more gain (BA283's or whatever they are called?).

Thanks for the answer Chris, looks like I might need to find a friend for my Trimax A55 I grabbed off this board a year or two ago so I can sum with that.

Maybe I should sell off a few more toys and hunt down some more pre's while everything seems reasonably cheap.

Yeah - the Neve factor definitely adds a great fatness - but also mud to my ears (i'm talking vintage Neve here) they just are not open enough in the top end like other pre's, and being open up in the higher frequencies is crucial for the job of makeup gain in a stereo mix.
Its the same reason why hardly anyone records and mixes on the same vintage Neve - by the time your mixing through the same character that was recorded with - its too much of one flavour and starts to add slightly muddy build up in the bottom end.
The old Festival Neve was like that - incredible console, but the main engineers there would baulk at recording and mixing through the same console if possible - for the above reasons.
Also why so many top engineers record on vintage Neve's and then mix on a SSL (which has a brighter, cleaner and more open top end)

Hey Chris W - what opamps did you order in your VP28's?
Please let us know how they sound - and what you think of them.

All GAR1731's.
CW

Chris - Its hard to find out what the real difference is in quality between the 2520 and the GAR1731.
Curios why you chose the GAR1731.
Please let us know how hey sound compared to the Q8's when you've had a mix to try them out on

The Tasmanian wrote:Give someone head....

I wonder about using some of the older Herman [that's *German* stupid phone] line amps for this purpose? I have a pair of rolas and telefunken v672s and think the teles have a slightly more aggressive, 'toppy' sound that might make them useful in this application

I'm using a Shadow Hills Equinox

heres a bit of stuff on it

The summing buss is a 30-channel mixer utilizing copper buss bars and esoteric resistors, for simply the finest sounding passive summing. DAW inputs 3-24 are STEREO summed and distributed odd to left and even to right, while DAW inputs 25-32 are sent MONO to both channels of the summing network. The summed signal then passes through the Golden Age amplifiers with selectable output transformers. Effectively allowing the user to choose between the sounds of three different consoles on the mix bus.

Personally
This thing does sound and look awesome
and it allows me to match and exceed many of todays digital recordings
way superior in sonics to the ssl i used to have, but there is something about a large pro board too.

The mic pres on it are fab

IMO in todays market more than ever you need your own skill sets to be somewhat bi-polar ie get incredibly authentic vintage sounds and then to be up on digital advancements. passive mixing can faithfully allow a merging of these 2 fields.