Turtlerock Forum

I was looking at the Nanostudio app for my Ipad and found this statement that really got me thinking:

"We review Nanostudio for iPhone and iPad, because actually learning to play a real instrument is so last century..."

I think I might be starting to agree?
The future is tablets/gesture software/custom controllable surfaces etc etc.

I can now do SO much more exiting stuff with an Ipad.
Many great music apps coming out at an alarming rate. It sort of blows the whole laptop/tower & software clean out of the water. Apps are constantly updated by the makers - (not like Avid etc)
Soon I can piss my whole studio off too - use only ipad and still charge the same hourly rate?

For now I'm selling my fukin old neanderthal guitar collection and keeping one to hang on the wall to remind me of apeman.
I do know this is blasphemy.........
Convince me otherwise

When you watch music industry lectures/master classes, of which there are some great ones online, you'll see the advice that the only way to get ahead is to do something unique or at least ear catching. There is an ever increasing mountain of material made by people with limited knowledge or skills. Nothing wrong in that, except it all sounds the same, especially when they are all using the same software, sample libraries and music apps.
It's never been easier to put together a professional sounding release, but it's never been harder to be heard and taken seriously.
After a couple of years of serious investment in time and money on software, I'm pulling out more and more old hardware. I find it easier to use, more fun, and I think it potentially makes my output sound different from many other competitors.

PS: And I'm sure you don't need convincing.

Rather than sell your "fukin old neanderthal guitar collection", just send them to me and I'll put them in the pre-history section of my museum for safe storage. Preference will be given to pre 1960 Fenders and Gibsons.

When I get back on my first instrument (guitar) - its like riding the scooter I had when I was 4YO - it was fun then.

This is the 2nd period in my life where I think they are so boring that I dont want to even look at them... I wont pick them up to start ideas with, i wont noodle around.
There's almost no guitarists left that inspire me - no-one taking it to new places, except with fx pedels - but that does not count in my mind - may as well play a synth than try to make a guitar sound "not like a guitar"

Sometimes its good to throw away what we are most familiar with - and immerse and force oneself to create in other ways.

I do agree with you Chris that they all sound the same - but I'm now wondering if that is changing as they make new software that is user customized to create new instruments , synthesis and new expressive playable gesture based instruments that will blow any guitar into a old niche thing (like a hurdy gurdy)

I suppose I'm having another period where I dont like who I married at 11 years old...
Maybe me n my boring guitar should do some relationship councilling - but i think its all over.
My new wife the ipad is SO HOT!!!

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure if jimmy page would look as good wielding an iPad.
Mind you that sentence should have been in past tense

yep - you wont pull any chicks with an ipad strapped over your neck (at this point in time)

The Tasmanian wrote:yep - you wont pull any chicks with an ipad strapped over your neck (at this point in time)

Unless you're wearing one of these. haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQqlGxJ_6ug
or one of these sexy things:)




Don't deny it...you're thinking about it. hmmm

me too.

It's sooo keytar.

WOW!!!!!

Ben you've just shown me my future!!!!!
Tomorrow i'll just get all of my vintage guitars and rout a holes to take my ipad(s) - or with semi acoustic's - cut with a jigsaw.
NOW I know what to do with these old lumps of wood... not worth selling now I can take them into the future.
I wont be able to sleep tonight...

I still don't have an iPad.
My advice is step away from it. Sounds like you've been assimilated.

ChrisW wrote:I still don't have an iPad.
My advice is step away from it. Sounds like you've been assimilated.

Resistance is futile
(sorry couldn't resist the star trek reference)

This whole "concept" makes me sad.

I realised a few days ago that it is 50 years since I started learning guitar and a couple more since I first "badgered" my parents about learning the instrument. I don't, in any way regard myself as a "good" player BUT what I play, I play with some deep form of emotion. I have too many muso friends who regard a "good" musician as the one who plays note perfect, who is always on the beat, etc., etc., but I'm afraid as awesome as some of those musicians are, their performances generally leave me unsatisfied , they've unwittlingly become musical technicians and any emotive content is more than likely contrived.

The idea of being able to convey musical life and emotion from computer/digitally generated music is something I personally find hard to grasp.

Oddly enough, I see this thread having potential cross-over to the pop music being too loud thread.

DwaneHollands wrote:

ChrisW wrote:I still don't have an iPad.
My advice is step away from it. Sounds like you've been assimilated.

Resistance is futile
(sorry couldn't resist the star trek reference)

Resistance is voltage divided by current.

(I'll see your nerd and raise it one geek)

ChrisW wrote:it all sounds the same, especially when they are all using the same software, sample libraries and music apps.
It's never been easier to put together a professional sounding release, but it's never been harder to be heard and taken seriously.

Sixteen years ago I did a Masters thesis on motion capture for music composition and control. Music was a fringe application then as it is now... the big money was in motion picture, military, and medical applications. Computing power was miniscule compared to what we have today. Xboxes hadn't been invented, let alone that add-on thingy that detects multiple players' movements using image processing! (Gaming hadn't advanced much past Pacman.)

At the risk of over-simplification, I came to the conclusion that the main reason why it's really hard to do is because the gestures we use with instruments are either applied to them or bear a strong spatial relationship with them. I suppose some of the "alternative" controllers are half way there in that one moves around a fixed sensor of limited size, but the problem of what to do with the motion information and how the gestures should be interpreted remains. (Interestingly, sign language, with its inherent expression of spatial and temporal relationships, seemed to me to be an obvious field of investigation but I didn't have the time or resources to pursue it and therefore flagged it as just that.)

That everything sounds the same is not so surprising. I suppose to reach a mass market, programmers have to rely on conventional algorithms and make gross gestures have obvious manipulative effects on the "preset" which meet the expectations of that market.

I'm not sure how much emotion I get from playing my iPad ....but I sure get more from turning the knobs of my modular !

Cheers

New technology provides us with great new tools to make music, but the physicality of playing a djembe at full throttle or a screaming guitar is a different thing. Something about the brain to body physical experience.
I know I can go into a drumming session with no energy and come out totally energized. That doesn't happen tapping fingers on an iPad.

Manning wrote:

DwaneHollands wrote:

ChrisW wrote:I still don't have an iPad.
My advice is step away from it. Sounds like you've been assimilated.

Resistance is futile
(sorry couldn't resist the star trek reference)

Resistance is voltage divided by current.

(I'll see your nerd and raise it one geek)

Lol

The Tasmanian wrote:WOW!!!!!

Ben you've just shown me my future!!!!!
Tomorrow i'll just get all of my vintage guitars and rout a holes to take my ipad(s) - or with semi acoustic's - cut with a jigsaw.
NOW I know what to do with these old lumps of wood... not worth selling now I can take them into the future.
I wont be able to sleep tonight...

Hahah

I guess you'll be needing this then. For some of that expression feel thingy stuff.

http://www.padgadget.com/2011/11/07/ipi ... your-ipad/

audioio wrote:That everything sounds the same is not so surprising. I suppose to reach a mass market, programmers have to rely on conventional algorithms and make gross gestures have obvious manipulative effects on the "preset" which meet the expectations of that market.

I wasn't really suggesting the tools sound the same. I was suggesting everyone, especially on the amateur level, are using the same tools.
And as more processes are done for you, so people are less likely to work harder to create a sound of their own.
The tools are great, but if everyone is using the same softsynth, drum library and daw. it's hardly surprising the results are very samey.

On the wider subject, guitars and all that...... finding a good guitarist, with a good sound, is already hard work.
The more people give up that aspect of themselves, the more valued the remaining guitarists (drummers, bassists) will become.

....well I must be stupid or something because I have decided a few weeks ago to actually start practicing regularly again after a few years of just coasting along.

Me too - Ive been practicing my ipad of late (keep my chops up)
Now where did I put that router and jigsaw?...
....vintage P90's would make good fishing sinkers too...

I have been very surprised by what music my kids have been listening too lately.My 22 yr old daughter is into the new folk music, Boy and Bear, Angus Stone, and lots of other stuff I'm not familiar with. My 18 yr old boy and his mates have amassed a collection of vinyl LP's from op shops and anywhere else they can find them. All music played on real rather than virtual instruments. My 15 yr old loves J Hendrix and I heard a Dr John track on his computer this morning, So I showed him this thread and asked him to comment:

"Why? why would you drop your guitars your instruments for a iPad? What music from the soul, the heart, does an i pad produce?? Synth music played from a loop someone else has made, fake synth guitar loops? I think this is pretty disgusting for a music producer to say that you should drop your guitar and instruments for an iPad. Where is he coming from? The making of music for money or the making of music from the soul and doing what you love to do making your own type and vibe of music. I think he is coming from the point of view for making money. Thats not what it is all about evan though it would be good to make money playing music but while doing what you love. I would like to see real talent with a guitar a flute a piano not an iPad. And you see it every time a underground artist becomes popular and signs with a big label, their music will change and the label will make them play music that they would make money off."

Casey Hallam

I'm over reading comments about how nasty 'big labels' are.
No one is forced at gun point to sign with a major label, but if they do, they have to realise it comes with a certain degree of compromise. The compromise is generally a change from one man dictatorship (songwriter/singer) to collaboration - artist, label boss, A&R and producer.
I've been on the road for a year at a time, and it's supremely hard to do something just to make money. You might as well be working on a factory line. And that's exactly what it feels like if you are doing something just to make money. I tried it a handful of times and realised quite quickly what a mistake it was.
In order to play the same songs, night after night, for many months, you have to believe in them. You just can't trot it out with one eye on a cash register.
All artists evolve and change direction over time. Sometimes they lose that magic spark, other times they improve with age.
It's a shame teenagers have such a cynical view of the business.

Hi Casey - its awesome to have your input here.
To explain where I'm coming from:
Firstly - this is a serious discussion, but I'm also taking the piss out of myself and the strange times we are in.
Secondly - I write music - I dont play other peoples stuff (stopped that when I was about 13)
And I dont write dots - I write with instruments in hand.
So this is all coming from a writing perspective - and I should have made that clear in the first post.

My history - Ive been playing guitar since I was 11 y/old.
Ive been the main - or only writer in every band I have ever been in.
Ive written music for many albums /TV shows/ animations/films/installations - toured the world etc etc....

Writers need to draw inspiration from many things in life - relationships, art, films, nature, injustices etc and of course the inspiration of other peoples music and the culture of now, and the past.

I work with quite a few famous artists that a lot would think are geniuses that can write an amazing song whilst eating cornflakes - but they suffer the same problems I do when i pick up the one instrument that I am so (too) familiar with - I find it hard to come up with something really special, from the heart and above all the starting point for something new and fresh.
You know what its like when you get a new footpedal for your guitar and suddenly you come up with new ideas and new inspiration?

During my time a player Ive forced myself to stop playing guitar - and played bass for a few years, analog synths, drums, perscussion and vocals. I made myself to do this so that I could have a better (deeper) understanding of the nuances that each role played, and it was about the smartest career thing i could have ever done.

Then I found myself loving and finding new joy in the ol guitar after immersing in other instruments.
So - here I am working with these amazing artists and helping them write, get past writers block and rediscover that all one needs at times is a different angle and all of a sudden the juices flow out effortlessly.

For eg - 2 weeks ago I went to NZ with a well known artist and we rented a little shack up the north coast of the top island to get some writing done for him - he was finding it hard to come up with fresh ideas as he'd been playing (guitar) since he was a kid too - my task was to get the artists out of the writing repetition / block.
I took a whole bunch of recording stuff - including a Maschine and 2 ipad's (plus we had amazing guitars/basses/drumkits/percussion etc).
I suggested right at the start (before I left Aus) - that if he wanted to come up with lots of NEW ideas for an album, that we should not start any idea with guitar, and suggested that we use Ipads and the Maschine to start things - and THEN add guitars etc. Because - we could easily throw away the ipad stuff after the song had been established
I must make this important point - I almost never work with loops or click tracks, and this was also the way i wanted to work over this period. (I hate clicks and obvious loops with a passion)
......So we had to PLAY together to come up with ideas.
I stipulated at the beginning that I would mainly play beats (with my fingers -NOT loops) - so that the artist could do the melodic stuff, and therefore I would not taint the melodic ideas that came forth at this idea stage. We listened to lots of music that inspire him in advance - so I knew what sort of beats inspired him.
Anyway - to cut a long story short - In 2 days we had most of a great record recorded.
He is totally inspired now to finish the songs - they don't sound at all too "electrocrap" - and every beat/ chord prog /riff came from playing - REAL playing.

Casey - all I can assure you is - a really good artist can play with IMMENSE feeling on ANYTHING - a car bonnet / a kitchen sink - and yes an ipad (with great software that allows one to MAKE their own sounds.)
Last thing we would ever do would be use some crap iguitar/garageband thingy - that's not the point.

Also - this has nothing to do with money - its all to do with confidence in writing, getting over being stuck for ideas, and getting new perspectives on the future of what the artist can do - and where he may feel comfortable going into the future.

If someone had told me this as a keen guitarist when I was 18 - I would have said "bullshit - I'll never run short of ideas or get stuck"
But by the time I was 20, I was hanging to expand my pallet - I started a band where I played bass ..... to give me new writing perspectives. then i expanded into playing Synth bass (SH101) and electric bass together where I learned to play both at the same time live - so i could expand on the limitations of an electric bass sound.

So...who wants to express themselves from the same starting point for their whole entire life?
Some may - most artist that have been doing it all their life need new angles.

Painters now use oil paints /dirt /glitter/ acrylic's /broken glass /tomato sauce/hairbrushes /cooking implements /water paints/ plastic/video projections etc etc - sometimes all combinmed in one artwork/painting.
I'm sure the old painters think it is blasphemy to use such mediums and implements - when oil paints are so incredible.

Not so great artists repeat/emulate others work - and forget that the artists they admire are perpetually looking for new starting points.

Great artists want to discover - not repeat themselves.

So Casey that's where I'm coming from - and its great to have your perspective and input!

And Casey - one more quick example.
Once a great aussie guitarist said to me during the recording of an album - "I'm sick of my guitar solo's - I seem to always approach them from the same angle - no matter what song/guitar/ style / amp /timing etc.
So I said " Right - first thing you have to do is take your guitar off, and flip it over and play it left handed...

Because the strings were now upside down, he could not start writing the solo from his normal playing perspective, also his hands were not as fluid playing left handed.
He worked out and played an amazing solo and thanked me - later down the track he told me that is one of his most favourite solo's he has ever played

Its thinking outside the square

Oh Dang!! - I just remembered another one that's a real beauty.
In a period where I fell in love with guitar again, I formed a band with Oren Ambarchi called Sun.
Oren (normally a guitarist) played drums - and I played guitar and sang (badly).
We used to get together and improvise /write and record in the studio.
I got inspired by killer drum beats - and could write/improvise very quickly if a particular beat Oren played got my creative juices flowing.
Oren is a great drummer - but (again) after a while had a bit of a block coming up with new beats as he would fall back into familiar ruts.
So we got to the point where I was not writing anything decent anymore because the beats were sounding samey.
And he was not coming up with fresh beats to inspire. And we only had half an album.
So I said to Oren - I'm going to Vinnie's in the morning - I know there is a milk crate full of cassettes there with lots of classic albums.
So the next morning I went in and dug out some classic albums and brought them into the studio.
I made Oren play to these cassettes like he was properly recording the drums.
He was not allowed to hear the songs before recording - he had to just play along (with enthusiasm) to whatever song came through the headphones.
BUT - all I allowed myself to hear was what Oren played.
So he played these unfamiliar new beats and I improvised to his drumming while we recorded live.
And I made sure we did not record the cassette onto multitrack - it was forever gone as a reference.
We ended up with killer new songs - just because both of our perspectives changed.
And then we added other verdubs.
So on our first album there is 3 tracks that if were super imposed over the cassette tracks the drums and arrangement (including natural rises and falls in tempo) line up with the original song. But not the key - or the chord/melodic content.
I think one of the songs was to a Glenn Campbell hit from the 70's.
It worked, it was fun, and it was inspiring.

Music is art.

I better go and do some work................

I agree, all the tools are good.
One doesn't need to give up on one thing (guitar) in order to become passionate about another (iPad).
Use both.
In the end though, even though you were being humorous, I don't think an ability to play an instrument will ever become passe. Of course you have to adapt they way you play from time to time.....and evolve.

The Tasmanian wrote:I was looking at the Nanostudio app for my Ipad and found this statement that really got me thinking:

"We review Nanostudio for iPhone and iPad, because actually learning to play a real instrument is so last century..."

I think I might be starting to agree?
The future is tablets/gesture software/custom controllable surfaces etc etc.

I can now do SO much more exiting stuff with an Ipad.
Many great music apps coming out at an alarming rate. It sort of blows the whole laptop/tower & software clean out of the water. Apps are constantly updated by the makers - (not like Avid etc)
Soon I can piss my whole studio off too - use only ipad and still charge the same hourly rate?

For now I'm selling my fukin old neanderthal guitar collection and keeping one to hang on the wall to remind me of apeman.
I do know this is blasphemy.........
Convince me otherwise

hey chris,

I might have agreed with you 1 yr ago, but i have found myself actually playing the guitar for fun, over this year....and bought an electric guitar with 3 completely diff pickups in it as well....and having a lot of fun playing it...

You might be bored of it, but that happens with me and the piano too...its just you're psyche being annoyed of the "every day".

Ontop of this, i have also been buying many instruments (elec guitar, arabic zils, bamboo flutes, kalimba, indian shawm/nadaswaram, spike fiddle/kemenche - on its way...and more)

Instruments are pretty last century if your way of playing them is last century. imo, alot of bands play with the intent of emulation, not innovation....modern instruments and ipads, and VSTs along with their genres have acceptable standards and sonic ideas, and MANY producers write to those expected sonic ideas...look at dubstep for examples, a kick and snare on the 1 and 3, respectively is pretyt much the stalwart of the genre, along with an LFO of some sort of filter....

You can say this is "getting old"...but it comes down to how good a producer is to twist this and make it cool.

I guess what im trying to say is that "modern" instruments can be so.."last month"...just as easily as acoustic instruments can...

Have a look at this website:

http://www.oddmusic.com/

it might change your mind about "instruments" being last century...i've actually contacted one of the designers (Japanese) and got photos from all angles of one of his instruments, so i can make it myself, it's a crank shaft operated 2 string fiddle, 1 string is drone, and the other is played, the fiddle has no frets, and it sounds like a wailiung cross between an indian sarangi and a hurdy gurdi...shit is wicked, and sounds cooler than alot of synth sounds u can jam on....my opinion obviously....but the short and sweet of it is, lots of bands can make ordinary instruments, extraordinary.....dont let your guitar boredom get you down!

On that note, i was fooling around with a very nice spanish acoustic, and by playing the damn thing COMPLETELY wrong (ie. place fingers dirrectly in the middle of frets) and vibratoing madly, while muting with some cotton pads taped on the bridge, it sounded nearly identical to a japanese koto....if you're bored, "treating", as in...treated piano treating, goes a long way in achieving new ideas and inspiration....

Also, i think i should say, a big factor for lack of inspiration is ...a very un-inspiring "current music" trend. there's very few unique and ground breaking artists, which are generally a source of inspiration.

i'm just rambling, i suspect you're familiar with what im gassing on about...

Chris T,

Those last 3 posts of yours were really insightful. And I can totally relate to hating my solos. Same approach etc. I was mucking around the other day in the studio and got to the same point."Man this all sounds the same! I wanna play something different" So Instead of descending runs which always travelled down, high notes to lower notes sequentially, I tried descending runs which I played a lower note first and then higher note while the run was technically going down. kinda a leap frog thing. and then did the opposite.

it certainly didnt sound like me....It was interesting.

I honestly think if you dont get to a point of frustration youre not going to create anything new or interesting. Exhausting all the cliches, all the angles, you totally hate what youve got, you think you are a terrible musician, pathetic writer amd then 6 hours later you come up with something great - or amazing - or moving. I often find thats how the process works for me.

Its about the hours sometimes. painful process though on all levels.

But Your ideas give me something to add to the mix and some different approaches which are very practical!

thanks for posting!

Thanks Dwane
Yeah we gotta push ourselves and our ideas and approaches to creativity- or whats the point in being a musician?
We must avoid looking at technology as - "its not a real instrument - so therefor it cant be played with emotion"

All the purist musicians said this in the 1970's when the first synths came out !!! -
In the 50's electric guitars were frowned upon BIGTIME by muso's as "that's not guitar".....
Bass players complained the same with electric bass.......
Keyboard players scoffed when piano's became electric ( whirlizer's and rhodes ) - all those incredible soul and jazz albums made on these !!!...
Hendrix and Clapton were scoffed at for using feedback and bending notes....
Amps that distorted we cussed....
Drummers were scoffed at when they started wacking drums hard....
Engineers were scoffed at when they decided to move a mic closer to the subject.. or when more than 1 mic was used on a drumkit.
When mulititrack came about through new technology - an overdub was done it was considered - not a "real" performance - invalid music.
Using FX like delay was scoffed at...

And on it goes WAY back through time......

Since electricity was incorporated into instruments we have had 50 years of great music made with electronics AND neanderthal guitars.

and here we are in 2012...
Its all part of the pallet of creation and expression.

You'll never beat a drum with an ipad.

25ish years ago I did a research paper on virtual reality - it looked like the "thing of the future". Still waiting...... the only place it has appeared is in the military (remote tanks and planes).

I've said it before and I'll say it again - hate computers!!! hate computers!!!!! die computer die die die!!!!!