Turtlerock Forum

http://vintageking.com/blog/2012/10/int ... ion-system

The Slate Raven MTX.

I don't know if its the actual product...
...or perhaps Slate's aggressive marketing technique that seems to accompany every single product they release. It seems like they can never actually let a product just speak for itself.

"Costly large format analogue consoles were never designed for a modern production process".

Costly? What about not so costly? This thing is meant to be priced below a 24 channel icon. Which puts it in the $20,000 to $30,000 range. I can see some interesting parts in the design. Having multi touch in a daw would be really interesting I think, but as a bloke who constantly puts down an ipad or iphone to type things on a real keyboard I don't really see it replacing every function with touch control.

"Faders are yesterday. Multi-touch is tomorrow". That is what Slate said on GS. Who loves mixing on a pane of glass?

For someone entering the industry right now I wouldn't be surprised if this became the norm and replaced, in their world, the analogue console, just as tape replaced direct cutting acetate and was then replaced by digital media, this is just another small step on the ever evolving journey of recorded music. That said, old farts like me will hang on to their analogue stuff and happily record the way they have learned to over the years.

I'm betting that the first album made entirely on that system is less than 12 months away.

first thing I thought of was.. man that is butt ugly.

second thing I thought of was.. hey why arent pretend touch sensitive faders, have their values assignable. Make the fader travel cover what ever dB range you want...

then I thought, man that thing is ugly. Big, and technology dependant cash drain. e.g


then I got sleepy

you know i have been privately spotting obselence every time i walk past it in life ..

the wiz bang new slate thing is the definiton of obselence !
ipod 4/5 dock .. usb dock .. lovely !
cutting edge ..
check back in 18 months ...

but sure somebody has to build a great big CSI tv style , virtual console
so you have a huge sheet of flat glass angled up at your ears to totally f@#$ up the sound
.. i mean .. its perfect !

thats what we are all dreaming of ..

but thats how we go forward in life innit ,
somebody dreams up something we all need .. we look at it ..
take what is viable dump the rest .. refine it . make it work

go slate ..
i will file it with the rest of the stuff i am going to forget to remember about ..

of yes perhaps file this device under .. industry Vanity projects as well ..


but really to be fair .. it is a credit to them to actually have the determination to build such a thing .
no puke for me .. i dont care enough to puke

i actually thiink its a fantastic idea. surely will be too expensive and be obsolete in about 5 months, but i think its great.

I used to wonder why someone didn't invent such a doover.... and was talking to the Samsung guy at Integrate a few years ago who couldn't see it happening in the near future.... but now it's here.

Can't say it will coerce me to change - I like pressing buttons, turning knobs and moving faders - old man with stiff neck syndrome? The older I get the older my equipment gets

Producers won't like it, they finally manage to get a beautiful, smooth, square meter sized backlit sheet of glass for the control room but it's tilted so it's useless!

Some Euro dudes were making a bigassed glass touchscreen controller for Traktor at least 3 years ago. Can't remember the name of it, but this kinda just looks like a bit of a ripoff of that, except the traktor one was see through so the audience could watch you mix tracks from the dancefloor.
The slant of this one makes it look really hard to do lines on.

Chinagraf wrote:The slant of this one makes it look really hard to do lines on.

10/10

hahahha.

Sorry guys, but people probably felt the same when electric lights replaced kerosene lamps. I personally think it's a good policy to explore innovation. Some things will stick, some will fall by the wayside. Best not to judge products until the real world has a chance to evaluate them and pass judgement. Keep an open mind. We wouldn't want to be still using wire recorders and carbon microphones would we?

Somehow I don't think the puke was anything to do with the product
There is something about buying cutting edge technology
Off a guy with dog tags And a $2000 hair cut that makes me wonder
If we are in the same pro audio business
or if perhaps I am getting sold a rock farm
In antartica.

Hmmm... I really like this idea.

It's no replacement for an LFAC, but as an alternative to pushing a mouse around on a virtual console, it looks great.

Whether it works in practice is another matter, but the core concept is valid. I use both a 36 ch LFAC and Pro Tools, and I'd love to get rid of my 42" computer monitors plus my Mackie MCUs and replace it with this.

I reckon there is a huge difference between technological breakthroughs (like recording sound onto a piece of wire) and simple skeuomorphism interfaces based on stuff that already exists (TV's, iPhone touchscreens, Protools).

Somehow I don't think sliding faders on a piece of glass is going to cut it - yes it's something new and different but I'd rather have real knobs and faders any day. I bought a PT controller app on ipad and used it for about 5 seconds before I realised how fcuking annoying it was.


Chris

touch screen fader lag....worst ever. period.

The lag should be minimal if were using capacitive touch with no external connections.

it's a little bit naff but i think its a step in the right direction. being able to automate assignable parameters from touch is great.

once you figure out the shortcuts it'll be gret.

it's going to be way to expensive though, lets be honest.

rick wrote:Somehow I don't think the puke was anything to do with the product
There is something about buying cutting edge technology
Off a guy with dog tags And a $2000 hair cut that makes me wonder
If we are in the same pro audio business
or if perhaps I am getting sold a rock farm
In antartica.

Ah! get the point about the marketing now thanks Rick. Maybe he could add a set of steak knives or some "Sea Monkeys". That'd get a few more sales surely.

rick wrote:Somehow I don't think the puke was anything to do with the product
There is something about buying cutting edge technology
Off a guy with dog tags And a $2000 hair cut that makes me wonder
If we are in the same pro audio business
or if perhaps I am getting sold a rock farm
In antartica.

Linear wrote:I reckon there is a huge difference between technological breakthroughs (like recording sound onto a piece of wire) and simple skeuomorphism interfaces based on stuff that already exists (TV's, iPhone touchscreens, Protools).

Somehow I don't think sliding faders on a piece of glass is going to cut it - yes it's something new and different but I'd rather have real knobs and faders any day. I bought a PT controller app on ipad and used it for about 5 seconds before I realised how fcuking annoying it was.


Chris

Bingo!

The invention of touch screen technology is innovation.

Using a touch screen to control protools really isn't. Particularly when the price being hinted at is $20k+. It doesn't matter if its a neve 80 series, a digidesign icon or the raven... They are all based around age old knobs and faders... Whether Slate wants to believe it or not. The really beauty and innovation with touch screen technology is you can move so so SO far away from that. As it stands with current touch screen devices like the iPhone or iPad, you have single finger control over two axis. X & Y. You could control two parameters with a single finger. In the coming years I don't doubt that pressure or touch sensitivity will be added as well. That gives you three parameters that you can alter with a single finger. That is what will outdate a fader or a knob. Not just digitally modelling a fader in every possible fashion.

I think what makes me puke is the marketing... I don't see anything breathtakingly new in the raven. People have been doing what the raven is doing for 7+ years, though in smaller forms.

Who knows. Maybe I am just a jackass.

Well it's already here in Broadcast consoles http://www.klotzdigonomics.com/touchstone.%20Htm .16 simultaneous touch points and tactile controls that you can place anywhere on the screen and customize your graphical work surface around . We're looking at them for the next studio rebuild/relocate job.

Laying it flat or angled could be an issue - most of the big tvs seem to have their warranty void if it is laid flat...

A couple of things...

I just stood in front of a 42'' LED TV, about a half a metre away from the screen, with the image frozen. After about 10 minutes my eyes started to fatigue... so I'm wondering what it will be like to do an 8-10 hour mixdown stint on one of these things, especially in a low lit room.

Secondly, the screen is protected by 2mm glass... is this really thick enough over that area. From a safety point of view I hope it's either laminated or toughened glass.

Lastly and excuse my ignorance, can somebody tell me how many faders and knobs can be moved simultaneously?

I'm really surprised no one has mentioned "tactile feedback".

That's why I hate my iphone and hate my Galaxy II just a little less.

Chris, is that what you meant by a piece of glass not cutting it?

I don't care one way or another about this thing, but I am disappointed (not surprised) by the strength of the reaction.
We are all dinosaurs in this game I guess, but to criticise a bit of gear that is infinitely re-imaginable simply because it is different, when none of you have tried it just smacks of techno-racism.

Or - as professionals, maybe we are all pointing out poss operating/business issues?
I don't think anyone here has a problem with new technology.
We embrace it - or we would not be able to work in this industry

I use neanderthal equipment like Electrodynes/Neves /API's/valves/inductor EQ's/transformers etc etc -
and caveman software like Pootools/Max MSP - ipads/maschines/bit crushers/synth software - and all of the great software that is being written for these formats.

I think the idea is really promising - but I don't want one.
(Really - this thing is a big ipad)

The "up close" thing could well be an issue unless it's much higher res than 1920x1080 - I use a 46" LED as my monitor (at least 8 hrs a day) - sitting back nearly 2 metres it's ok - but any closer and it's too much.

Looking forward to the next advancement into virtual reality - with the glove and the wand so it's virtual tactility.

steve_awesome_wells wrote:I don't care one way or another about this thing, but I am disappointed (not surprised) by the strength of the reaction.
We are all dinosaurs in this game I guess, but to criticise a bit of gear that is infinitely re-imaginable simply because it is different, when none of you have tried it just smacks of techno-racism.

I don't think it has anything to do with people being "techno-racist". Most of us use touch screen technology on a day to day basis. Perhaps the technology isn't mature enough in this application... I don't know. But by the looks of it, it is going to take a little more creative thinking to get people to part with their cash.

Replacing faders I can touch with touch screen faders isn't very particularly "infinitely re-imaginable" is it? I think its just the kind of technology that will only grab hold on a large scale in audio when it has the associated "ooooh! aaarrrgh!" factor.

I don't want one either, but remember when people said steam would never be replaced? People growing up with this stuff will find ways to use it that we can't even conceive of, and if they like to use it, and like the sound of the music they make, well there you go. If digital came first and then someone invented analog tape recording, we'd all be poo pooing the crappy specs. I started recording when the Beatles were still together, and all I know is that you need money and boffins to keep an analog system up to spec. If you can afford it, great. If you can't, or don't have the technical skill, big analog can be a hissy crappy place. The search for the perfect control environment brings us many alternatives, some will succeed, others won't. It seems to me a great controller makes it easier to use custom and esoteric outboard rather than 96 channels of the same electronics. Compared to a large Neve or whatever, a touch screen and outboard MAY not be such a bad/expensive thing, especially given modern ways of working.
I'm just surprised that no-one has said "I'd like to see one in operation". Sorry folks, I think you're being really conservative. Mind you, I'd much rather see physical faders on that thing, but like I said, I don't even vaguely want one.

OK, so on reflection I guess I didn't read ALL of the posts.

Well yes, young people with only a couple of years experience love soft-synths and Apple loops.
It's not my preferred way of making music, and I think it's OK to be honest about that.
I'm not saying young producers are lesser because of the way they work, or the sounds they appreciate.
It's not for me, and I think that's absolutely fine.
I'm moving away from virtual to more tangible.
But then when I was writing music for tv my partner recorded double my output. He largely produced score with Spectrasonics sample libraries and a JV1080 (pre-sets), while I was sound designing from scratch with analogue synths and a large modular system.
I got the job done, but I had to work twice as long, and twice as hard. But at the same time I got no satisfaction from creating a score by layering someone else's ambient patches with a couple of Roland pre-sets.
Working super fast by layering software sound libraries is progress in music for tv. The 'future' when I was working has become the reality.
So I think progress happens naturally. Raven will find it's place in the studio by natural selection (or not).
Not all progress is for the better, and we each have our own opinion on what is good progress and what is not.
I'm reserving judgement on Raven, because as has rightly been mentioned, we don't really know how it works or how useful a new tool it is yet.

steve_awesome_wells wrote:I'm just surprised that no-one has said "I'd like to see one in operation". Sorry folks, I think you're being really conservative.

Surely we can look at a product like this and make a decision if we want to trade the way we currently work with all the great tools we collect and combine (HW+various SW) - for this one platform.
I know I would rather use all of my other tools which all combined do what this thing does and much much more, and with all the bits having a certain individual sonic character that I wont trade for a piece of glass with software behind it.
... my combination of skills and all the various bits of gear I combine to record and mix with gives my work a sonic character (voice) that is mine. These 2 things combined are my biggest asset.
Therefore - why would I want to even try this thing?

Same creative decision Chris made to work with hardware synths in his situation. I see his choice to use all of his gear rather than his partner's way of working as a creative decision based on not being conservative.

...It would be conservative for me to drop my individual toolset +talent + skills combo that I have developed over many years for 1 sonic generic platform.

But I am, and I believe most others here are interested in the technology, the way it works, the possibilities, and its possible developments into the future.
The only thing that makes me want to puke a bit here is this idea / generalization we are being conservative because we don't want to try it .
..and I'm fine with the ipad's screen size.

Drumstruck wrote:The "up close" thing could well be an issue unless it's much higher res than 1920x1080 - I use a 46" LED as my monitor (at least 8 hrs a day) - sitting back nearly 2 metres it's ok - but any closer and it's too much.

Looking forward to the next advancement into virtual reality - with the glove and the wand so it's virtual tactility.

I think that is one of the fundamental problems with touch screen technology. Bigger bulbous human fingers replacing tiny little mouse cursors. I suspect the low resolution on huge screens is required to increase the accuracy of your fingers.

And you won't need a glove for your virtual tactility. It is all being done with electrostatic fields: http://www.theverge.com/2011/12/2/26051 ... demo-video