Turtlerock Forum

We need this here:-

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/oh-the-relief-tv-advertisers-told-to-find-volume-control-and-use-it-20121214-2bf8l.html

We have OP59 about to start, which is basically the same effect. The US were working to -23 LKFS but I think the calm act thingy (stupid acronym) is bringing them in line with us at -24.

Drives me crazy.
But one of the worst offenders is 'ad free' ABC in my opinion.
Not only do their TV programmes vary greatly in output volume, but segments within the news and 7:30 Report. I mainly watch ABC, and our remote is constantly in use.
ABC runs far too many 'ads' for their own shows, and while I struggle to hear many programmes properly, the trailers are always ear splittingly loud. In the spirit of 'The Grumpy Guide....' I've contemplated running my tv audio into a DAW to log the wild jump in volume from programme segment to programme segment, and then the inbetween trailers, which have to be 10db louder than every programme.
Rant over........

I haven't had a TV for 7 years, could not think of anything worse to have for entertainment.


Lol

walding wrote:I haven't had a TV for 7 years, could not think of anything worse to have for entertainment.

I've got a TV and a DVD player but no antenna.

There IS some great TV being made (Breaking Bad, Sherlock) plus there are good movies out there (I'll watch anything with a Thomas Newman score).

But as broadcast TV seems to consist primarily of fat people shouting, dance contests and Harvey Norman ads, I don't miss the antenna at all.

ABC for kids (as mentioned regarding ABC) - ughhh.

My 2 year old watches this channel occasionally, and the level discrepancies are atrocious!
Some shows are as quiet as a mouse, then the next one tears your head off.

Yes well the problem isn't actually some standard
Or advertisers cheating
It is simply that technology has replaced the audio
Guy in master control at the tv stations

Back when the world was analog it was somebodies job to sit
In master control and basically and simply mix
And monitor the on air feed at ALL times

Now it all gets fed into a spreadsheet on a router
Playlist .. And what ever was done is straight to air
And it's no bloody wonder the abc is so bad
Abc radio is worst !
It's odd because once they were the bar
And it's not for lack of budget or equipment
It's just lack of understanding of what the audio
Guy did in master control ?

Nothin apparently !

I just been refurbishing a pair of RCA 96A. This is the first commercial limiter ever made. It harks from 1936!

In gathering manuals etc for them, I came across some literature explaining how the use of an automatic limiter would mean that a technician would no longer be required to sit in the transmitter hut manually riding the levels. Back in the day of course the only transmission medium was AM radio and overdriving an AM radio transmitter is a potentially catasrophic thing to do. Maybe if very expensive transmission equipment blew up every time the levels were out of wack broadcasters would take more care.

These days when I watch TV I don my white coat and constantly ride the TV audio level. I'm thinking of building a fader into the armrest of the sofa.

oh.... and the RCAs .... over seventy years old, replace a couple of capacitors, bung in some new tubes and they work! And work incredibly well

Djembe wrote:We need this here:-

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/oh-the-relief-tv-advertisers-told-to-find-volume-control-and-use-it-20121214-2bf8l.html

No we don't. Canberra has enough to do without sticking their nose in our business. We should be able to manage this ourselves, but it’s a brave new world for us old broadcasters and it'll take some time to settle into it.

Chinagraf wrote:We have OP59 about to start, which is basically the same effect. The US were working to -23 LKFS but I think the calm act thingy (stupid acronym) is bringing them in line with us at -24.

There is no set number which needs to be adhered to, only that the measured Loudness match the metadata being sent to the home decoder (i.e. VALID metadata) In the original concept, Dolby Systems made provisions that content producers could establish their own dialnorm, and then pass their metadata on to the home viewer. But the current reality is that passing source metadata on has proved to be difficult, therefore, as per the ATSC's RP-a85 http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a_85-2011a.pdf the broadcasters in the US (and Europe) settled on the idea that metadata should be generated once and once only at the final stage of transmission. -24 LKFS was accepted as a good reference. (And it seems to be working).

The CALM act in the states came about for a variety of reasons centered around the roll out of digital transmission.

Here in Australia, we are in limbo land. Analogue and digital transmission is running in parallel. Once we finally turn off all analogue transmitters over the next few years (as has already happened in the US) and we start broadcasting exclusively in digital, we stand half a chance of resolving this age old problem. The free to air networks (Freeview) have published OP59 http://www.freetv.com.au/media/Engineering/OP59_Measurement_and_management_of_Loudness_in_Soundtracks_for_Television_Broadcasting_-_Issue_1_-_July_2010.pdf which states that as of January 1, 2013, all content should be mastered at -24 LKFS. It’s a STANDARD whose time has finally come. Loudness meters are now commercially available that effectively replace the VU and PPM meters. It’s kinda like the 3 "meters" I have in my car to tell me how fast I am going. The tacho is kinda like a ppm. The speedo is kinda like a VU. And the onboard computer gives me my average speed as a number displayed on the dash kinda like a Loudness Meter.

Effectively, the networks' digital transmitters send out a bitstream that contains the video, the audio and metadata, which tells your set top box (or on-board tuner) what to do with the signal. Your home equipment is the new master control and the operator is the metadata. If all commercial makers adhere to this STANDARD, and all program providers adhere to this STANDARD, then the home viewer should get a reasonably smooth transition from commercial to program to commercial to promo, etc. This is happening worldwide, therefore content made overseas should be compliant.

And did you know that built into your set top box is a 4 stage compander? Effectively, if the audio drops below a given level, an expander kicks in and brings it up. Conversely, if the audio goes over a fixed threshold, a compressor kicks in. This is known as DRC or Dynamic Range Control and it, too, is a part of the metadata. The networks can choose to turn it off or use one of several presets that have different threshold settings.

Of course, none of this applies to the analogue stations (and I haven't a clue as to what Foxtel are doing) but if everyone mixes to the same standard, then things should begin to level out.

So, if you are involved in mixing content for TV (whether here or overseas), I'd strongly suggest you get your hands on a Loudness meter ASAP and get yourself complient with the networks' specs.

http://www.linearacoustic.com/products-and-solutions/monitoring/lq-1000.html
http://www.linearacoustic.com/products-and-solutions/loudness-control/aerofile.html

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/hardware/broadcast/test-and-measurement/lm100.html
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/software/broadcast/dolby-media-meter2.html

http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=11884

And here's a free one just to get you started
http://www.orban.com/meter/

Very informative and useful as always AL

Now I am going to run a bet
My dad is 69 my kids are 5 & 6
I bet either my dad goes deaf or my kids grow
Too old for abc for kids before somebody levels
Out that damn station
It's like the Gaza Strip when ever they watch tv at nanna and pops house

Not sure which ones are the Palistinians
But the tv is certainly a bunch of pissed of isralies
Running all over the place With no sane solution in site !

( well that's a metaphor of coarse no political agenda or
Insult meant there)

Yeah, not sure what is going on at the ABC. I imagine there is too much automation, not enough ingest QC and a lot of legacy content. Anybody on this forum connected with the ABC?

Never had this problem in the UK.
Although yes, ads are much louder (by design) and BBC trailers can be louder than the programming.
Doesn't the BBC have a designated audio standard that every production needs to adhere strictly to?
The ABC is absolutely the worst I've encountered, and I lived in the UK most of my life and spent much, much time in America.
The audio is an absolute mess, with interviews in pre-prepared 7:30 Report stories almost inaudible, while the reporter's voice over is blasting out.
I've contemplated slapping my own broadcast compressor across my tv audio.

TV...and movies, both culprits of completely insane levelling...

whisper whisper whisper EXPLOSION.
tv showtv showtv showtv show AAAADDDDDDD!

bloody hate it, and the only conclusion is, there are no audio engineers working in the ABC, or most of hollywood

I attended a lot of tv mixes in the 90's.
One thing I particularly noticed, tv mixes are almost always done in a soundproofed room, with perfect acoustics and large monitor systems. They should mix a tv show in a regular room with traffic driving past, or under an airport flightpath.
I think that's why dialog and music (grrr) is low level, but explosions and sundry fx are super loud.

with all the pros in the industry, you'd think a few more of them would have cottoned onto that!

ChrisW wrote: tv mixes are almost always done in a soundproofed room, with perfect acoustics and large monitor systems. They should mix a tv show in a regular room with traffic driving past, or under an airport flightpath.

Isn't that also the way music is made?
If we mixed for the various environments that the buyers are in, we'd have to have many mixes commercially available. What would be neat is if the equipment we listened on had environment algorithms such as: "Listening to my CD player at home on crap speakers with the windows open and rain falling on the tin roof" or "In my car, travelling at 100k with the windows down" or "watching TV under a flight path". But there are too many variables, so we all mix to what sounds good to us and we trust it will tranlate to the people as best we can.

Remember too that movies are mixed to be heard in theatres (which are often spec'd to a Dolby standard). I'm not sure but maybe there is a TV remix (but maybe not).

If your TV reciever has something like "night mode" or "after hours mode" you might try engaging that as that has a seperate DRC with tighter thresholds in the compander which should help "contain" the dynamic range a bit.

now THAT is potentially the best idea i have heard on this forum in years !

if NIGHT mode can settle down the random rocket blasts
well there just may be peace in the middle east ( inner west ) over christmas

i am calling oneil snr to set that up for the oneil jnrs immediately !

abc .. you would think with all that stuff and all those people it would at least be somebodies fault

but they have neglected to elect a commitee to do a study on the viability of putting somebody in charge of audio ever again .. so we could blame them ..!

Dolby Monitoring Spec is for each front speaker (LCR) to be set to product 85 dB C weighted, slow response, when send a pink noise signal of -20db VU.

Surrounds are 82dB.

Recommended specs for a TV mix suite are 79dB, although some places with a tiny mix room will run 77dB.

Simon "Smash" Ashby.

That's what things "should" be mixed at, but often aren't.

yes well the issue really is the guys cutting the promos or short interview bits ( video and audio ) are doing it on their laptops and i know for a fact it hs been done in hurry more then once while they are driving or parking the car ..

they hand it in , somebody watches it while shuffling ther rest of the programs together and
some lovely admin type add it to playlisst for the day together in a spreadsheet
presses merge for the vision switchers

instant TV once

and off to air it goes..
once past the heads and forget .. except that they loop the same shit over and over and over

dont believe me ..?

.. well you dont have to but .. that IS what is goin on .

it should not be like that ..

but if its got old folks and youngins abstractly involved

well its surely NOT the way to do things

ABC PULL YOUR SOCKS UP

I have no first hand experience at the ABC, but down at TEN I can assure you there is a control room full of real people and an expert audio director keeping all those wild reports under control and metering at -24LKFS. There's even real cameramen on the floor. I think the ABC bought into a set of equipment several years ago that promised to "reduce staff costs" and are now stuck with it. With no ratings to chase, and no advertisers to kiss up to, there is no incentive for quality. Just goes to show that a government run broadcaster is a metaphorical oxymoron.

AlCraig wrote:With no ratings to chase, and no advertisers to kiss up to, there is no incentive for quality. Just goes to show that a government run broadcaster is a metaphorical oxymoron.

At least they can achieve lip-synch, which is more than their South African equivalent can!

Abc content is 2nd to none in this country or anywhere I can think of
Where I have experienced public broadcasters

But as a guy that makes everything the same level for a living
I know nothing beats a qualified ear , suddenly saying hey that's not right

Now the new senior boss of audio at ten reads this forum and came to
The BBQ on Sunday
No need to be so nice to him Al ..
But yes they have a live body in master control most of the time !

Regarding the way commercial music is mixed. Well yes, music is much less dynamic these days. It's generally all loud.
Regarding mixing tv in a acoustically perfect room, I've been there many times and the dialog is very easy to hear in a silent room, not so much in the average living room, which is where it is designed to be consumed.
I very rarely watch commercial tv, but I do think the sound is much more consistent. ABC content is excellent, but the sound is the worst I've come across anywhere in the developed world.
And what's with the excruciatingly loud pips on the radio, twice as loud as the person reding the news?

rick wrote:Abc content is 2nd to none

Agreed

rick wrote:Now the new senior boss of audio at ten reads this forum and came to
The BBQ on Sunday
No need to be so nice to him Al ..
But yes they have a live body in master control most of the time !

Not being nice, just giving eye witness accounts.
I had to work on Sunday or I would have been there too.
Would have liked to have met him. They seem to have it together (technically).

AlCraig wrote:Yeah, not sure what is going on at the ABC. I imagine there is too much automation, not enough ingest QC and a lot of legacy content. Anybody on this forum connected with the ABC?

I'm not with the ABC but I heard that audio on ABC NEWS24 is fully automated apart from THE DRUM show.
Audio is done by the person switching the vision and audio just follows.
Apparently the studio cameras are unmanned.
I find massive differences in level between the commercial channels, be it between networks or a channels
subsidery station, up to 20db sometimes.

when I worked in radio I had the job one day of setting the pips level. It was one of the highlights of my mixing career.

Grrr

They hurt my ears.

walding wrote:I haven't had a TV for 7 years, could not think of anything worse to have for entertainment.


Lol

Well spotted, Mark!

But of course, even if you do have one, you don't have to ever *watch* it! :-{

You think the TV ads are bad? You should hear the ads on the channel 10 Internet catch up TV... Out of control!!!

My plasma of 5 years just stopped working so I've been watching catch up tv online and the difference in levels is much worse than normal tv. The shit part is there's no remote to mute the ads. I hope someone who has the power to fix this problem reads this thread and creates a change.