Turtlerock Forum

I have a song, that goes back to 2007.

It has been through at least 10 different incarnations...trying to find "it", if you know what I mean, and if you are a songwriter chances are you do.

My problem , among many, is that I have no objectivity left. None. NADA... Bupkiss.....

If you feel so inclined and have a few minutes, if you could have a listen, and just tell me what doesnt work for you, what is distracting, I would be grateful. Hopefully it will allow me to see it through more objective eyes.

My main thoughts, are the drums. I am playing everything on this, and I am predominently a guitar player/singer.

I have resisted all urges, to quantize the drums, in fact everything in this song, is just how I tracked it, all tracking had to be down in one pass for all instruments.

This is something I am trying to do atm, to capture what "feel and vibe" I can , being the only person playing on these...as well as writing and mixing them...agaiin , objectivity zero (should be a good band name. 8)... ).

the drum fill at the very start is a little wonky, I think, I did do a test, where I quantized the drums, and all the soul fell out and killed any vibe. I even tried a little nudge here and there, and you (well I do) start dissappearing up the rabbit hole.....

I was trying to lay back, but may have gone too far.




http://s93783807.onlinehome.us/ozlandmusic/GOK.mp3'

I am pretty thick skinned, so if it blow, say it blows. I wouldnt be bothering you guys If I didnt want honest objectivity.

thanks

Wiz

Hi, overall its a nice tune.

Guitar Intro: too much hard panning on the left, perhaps centre it a bit more, and make the intro vocals closer to the centre too.

The words in the first verse "spin around", change it to "Spin 'round"

when you start singing the next verse which startss "...little faith...", the music needs something else here. It seemed a bit empty.

@1:38, drums come in out of time. You have fix it. Also, it is very abrupt.

I like the tremolo of the elec guitar when it comes in.

however, 2nd time through the solo, the high hat needs to be double time and stay at that rate for the next bit at least.

2nd guitar solo seemed a bit loud.

The song it too draggy, not sure if it is the speed or the way the instruments are played. Like you can play a bit behind the beat or ahead. But it sounds draggy.

at 4min, I was loosing patience with the song. Try re-tracking the whole thing at almost double speed to see what it sounds like. I struggled to stay till 6min, I did, but it was hard.

Pull the whole song back to close to 3 mins, either by increasing the tempo or cutting out so many solos. That many is not necessary, or do both. eg, the first guitar solo was 2 times through, once is enough, same with 2nd solo, then in the outtake, too many solos there too.

I'm just saying the things that stood out as things I didnt like. Its a good song.

Oh, the intro was too long, and sounded like the alanis moriset song. It thought it was going to be a cover of it. maybe change the strum pattern a bit, or the voicing of the guitars.

These are my opinions, others may disagree entirely.

Gian wrote:Hi, overall its a nice tune.

Guitar Intro: too much hard panning on the left, perhaps centre it a bit more, and make the intro vocals closer to the centre too.

The words in the first verse "spin around", change it to "Spin 'round"

when you start singing the next verse which startss "...little faith...", the music needs something else here. It seemed a bit empty.

@1:38, drums come in out of time. You have fix it. Also, it is very abrupt.

I like the tremolo of the elec guitar when it comes in.

however, 2nd time through the solo, the high hat needs to be double time and stay at that rate for the next bit at least.

2nd guitar solo seemed a bit loud.

The song it too draggy, not sure if it is the speed or the way the instruments are played. Like you can play a bit behind the beat or ahead. But it sounds draggy.

at 4min, I was loosing patience with the song. Try re-tracking the whole thing at almost double speed to see what it sounds like. I struggled to stay till 6min, I did, but it was hard.

Pull the whole song back to close to 3 mins, either by increasing the tempo or cutting out so many solos. That many is not necessary, or do both. eg, the first guitar solo was 2 times through, once is enough, same with 2nd solo, then in the outtake, too many solos there too.

I'm just saying the things that stood out as things I didnt like. Its a good song.

Oh, the intro was too long, and sounded like the alanis moriset song. It thought it was going to be a cover of it. maybe change the strum pattern a bit, or the voicing of the guitars.

These are my opinions, others may disagree entirely.

thanks so much, thats great of you, and exactly what I was chasing, thanks again,

cheers

Wiz

Hi,
I'd agree the song seems too long for the kind of song it is.

The first instrumental bit that came in, i was a bit confused about....dont think it has a place (yet). Need a bit more singaling before anyting like that comes in normally... Im not gods gift to pop song writing, but if i was infront of a computer moving audio around live, i might be able to work something out, but yeahj something needs to be done to keep a verse, chorus, verse chorus bridge/solo thing happening....it is happening for most of the song, just that first instrumental break is odd is all.

In the song before the drums and bass and stuff kicks in, i think a few things need to be looked at:

a) back the reverb off a touch, or reduce the predelay a bit...sounds like it swells in, which isnt really right for this tune imo.

b) i think there might be sections where the vocals are entering abruptly, particularly the breath sounds dont mean to be rude but just doble check your crossfades, or audio clips to make sure they are all in, and you havent slid the start of the vocals too late or too early.

The drums....and editing, here's my stance....

it's either:

a) sloppy because it's punk and you dont give a f*ck
b) quantised, and bland, because you're that kind of band
c) edited properly...like you know what you're doing...
d)amazing and un edited because jesus himself was inside your hands

i'd go for c (or re record for d)...edits should sound like they've been done, period....to do that, if you'd having trouble, tap out the fill on a desk and mic it....smack into PT, and line up your transients to it....do your cross fading, and the song should sound natural.

The panning, also agree with Gian, it sounds a bit odd for this kinda song, i started thinking about it as soon as the song started...its not "wierd" enough a tune to afford that kind of panning imo.

Good stuff:

The tune is pleasant...the vocals are great, the guitar solo electric stuff has cool effects and such on it...It's recorded really well and nothing stuck out as being engineered badly...

You've done a great job imo, edit up the drums properly...emphasis on proper, and sort that arrangement, and panning thing, and ur good for gold man.

jkhuri44 wrote:Hi,
I'd agree the song seems too long for the kind of song it is.

The first instrumental bit that came in, i was a bit confused about....dont think it has a place (yet). Need a bit more singaling before anyting like that comes in normally... Im not gods gift to pop song writing, but if i was infront of a computer moving audio around live, i might be able to work something out, but yeahj something needs to be done to keep a verse, chorus, verse chorus bridge/solo thing happening....it is happening for most of the song, just that first instrumental break is odd is all.

In the song before the drums and bass and stuff kicks in, i think a few things need to be looked at:

a) back the reverb off a touch, or reduce the predelay a bit...sounds like it swells in, which isnt really right for this tune imo.

b) i think there might be sections where the vocals are entering abruptly, particularly the breath sounds dont mean to be rude but just doble check your crossfades, or audio clips to make sure they are all in, and you havent slid the start of the vocals too late or too early.

The drums....and editing, here's my stance....

it's either:

a) sloppy because it's punk and you dont give a f*ck
b) quantised, and bland, because you're that kind of band
c) edited properly...like you know what you're doing...
d)amazing and un edited because jesus himself was inside your hands

i'd go for c (or re record for d)...edits should sound like they've been done, period....to do that, if you'd having trouble, tap out the fill on a desk and mic it....smack into PT, and line up your transients to it....do your cross fading, and the song should sound natural.

The panning, also agree with Gian, it sounds a bit odd for this kinda song, i started thinking about it as soon as the song started...its not "wierd" enough a tune to afford that kind of panning imo.

Good stuff:

The tune is pleasant...the vocals are great, the guitar solo electric stuff has cool effects and such on it...It's recorded really well and nothing stuck out as being engineered badly...

You've done a great job imo, edit up the drums properly...emphasis on proper, and sort that arrangement, and panning thing, and ur good for gold man.

Thanks so much for taking the time to listen and comment.

I am gonna have a crack at all the suggestions from both of you, will post up another version when I do.


Thanks again guys, it really will allow me to get back into the tune...


Cheers

Wiz

There is a lot that is good about both the song and the production.
The main guitar being panned is a problem. I guess it should seem like the main guitar and lead vocal are coming from the same source.
The first drum entry is very out of time. It strikes me as a flaw because it's the first time you hear drums.
The drums overall are very laid back in feel and sound. From time to time it sounds tired due to the very late snares. I would have tightened up just a few. Laid back is ok, dragging behind the guitars is ..... a drag IMO.
The main thing missing is keyboards, or some extra colours.
It doesn't have to be much, but for example, the instrumental section after the first chorus doesn't build. Nothing really happens. It just needs a new element or an extra colour. Likewise the guitar solo. It should probably build in the arrangement. Most easily achieved with some subtle keyboard colours I think.
After the last chorus the track should fade over the first part of the outro solo. You don't need another 1 minute (plus) of the same guitars, same chords. You've told your story, and it's time to depart gracefully, leaving the listener wanting more.
I haven't read any of the comments above so as not to be influenced.
Just my 2 cents.....

Agree with Chris, definately some synth/keyboard layering would not go astray, i wanted to say that too, but i am usually hesitant about recommending people add more stuff to their arrangements...

if you know me in person, you'd know i take this too far

You know what I like to do, and I think someone said it above:

Keep the listener wanting more.
so, if you have a cool thing you do, just do it once or twice, so that the listener is waiting for it again, but it never comes.

Also, generally as a song writer/arranger, if you are feeling iffy about something, take it out or modify it. You really have to be brutal, coz the listener will be (at least by not listening).

thanks again, for all the feedback.

On the panning thing.

Panning, is one of the weirdest things in mixing I plumb reckon.

Here what I normally do. Pan exactly as suggested. The acoustic guitar would never get that wide, nor would the
Strat Tremolo get so far out on the opposing side.

I had been reading a lot about panning, LCR (left center right) mixing,and just watched a documentary where George Harrison was talking about how when mono came in they all hated it.

So, I sat down and thought, okay Wizboy, pick a few classic songs you havent listened to in years, and imagine how you would pan the instruments, write it down then go have a listen. I couldnt have been more shocked.

For fun, do this, think about Wild Horses by the stones, Better Days by Pete Murray as an example for two of the songs, as they were two I used. Both start with an Acoustic guitar intro, Imagine where it "should" be panned. Then go have a listen.


Wild Horses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFLJFl7ws_0

(bonus point, if you have VU's watch em at around 25 secs "child HOOD living" 8) )


Better Days

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZB-WAG9lSY


Now Its interesting, in that Wild Horses, almost immediatley has a contrasting guitar part on the opposing side. So perhaps the wide panning, is kind of taken care of by arrangement in that case.

In Better Days, we are given a Fully left Acoustic for the first 33 secs, until the first chorus.

Now given that if you like me, didnt imagine the panning arrangement of those two songs to be that extreme, and wouldnt have panned them that way yourself, why does it work for them in that context?

I ask, because I am truly interested. I think its not how far left the guitar is, in my song, but the lack of supporting arrangement to support its pan position.

Arranging is something I battle with endlessly. It is also the reason the song is as long as it is at this point.

Well there are two reasons for that, one to help me find the right arrangement be leaving lots of extra time in sections that I can cut out later, better to cut out than try and add i think, thats why there are a couple of solos etc, I dont really know where they will end up.

The second reason, is I write songs to go on an album, and try not to write myself into a corner, get to the album time and realise that a longer song, might just be the ticket for the 7th song.. etc


I didnt want to pre empt anyones thoughts by including that info in the first post. It would have changed the way you listened to the tune.

Thanks again, so much. You guys have given me some great feedback, and I intend to hack into the song next week and see if I can bring it to life.

This song is my white whale.. I know there is a great song in there, I just gotta let it out.

Thanks again, i know it takes time to listen and comment and truly, I am grateful.


Peter

I don't think you are far off.
Never completely reject a cliche though. Cliches are that way because they work.
I've heard more problem arrangements and mixes in my time because people are trying too hard to be different. I'm the same myself. Every time I do it I kick myself.
I have a Steve Miller track here (somewhere) that starts with an acoustic gtr hard panned, but after about 8 bars a second overdub acoustic comes in panned to the other side. I would have suggested that to you, but i think it overcomplicates the intimate atmosphere of the song. The reason to pan your main acoustic guitar centre is that most of the time the song is carried by the acoustic guitar and lead vocal. It just makes more sense to link the acoustic and voice to the same space in the mix.

On the bigger picture....
I was once in a band that hired a couple of UK hitmaker producers to help in pre-production before an important album.
It was interesting. They ditched anything in a song arrangement that wasn't absolutely crucial to the song.
Little 4 or 8 bar instrumental passages all got removed. They even went as far as suggesting link passages should be unusual lengths like 6 bars if 8 bars felt slightly too long.

Firstly, again let me say a huge thanks to those who responded.

http://s93783807.onlinehome.us/ozlandmu ... horter.mp3


I tried, everything that was suggested, that I could (not going to retrack the entire thing at twice tempo ...not yet anyways ), dont want to add keys, as I have no "real" keys here atm, only soft synths, and at this point of the game, this album is going to have nothing "fake" on it. If it aint real, and I cant play it, its not on....subject to change of course.

I have shortened the intro, completely, and come album time will see whats what, can always put a longer acoustic intro in.

Drums are tightened.

Needs some vocal rides...but I will put it back to bed, work on the other songs, and come back in a few weeks/months and see.

I really like the way it turned out, and you guys were dead on with practically everything...

Dont feel compelled to comment again if you dont want to....


thanks again

Peter

(Ps Merry Xmas)

Peter,
That's much better!
But....
You need another "voice" in the 2nd verse. Maybe introduce that guitar sound you used for the second solo in the last bar of the 1st verse and throughout (sparsely) the 2nd verse. But keep it VERY simple, almost pad-like, and off in the distance.
Or maybe the 2nd verse just needs the bass to come in.

Speaking of the second guitar solo, after the solo is over, pick up the entire track and move it about 10ms or so (experiment) to the right and push it further into the back ground. It needs to lay back with the snare.

And I feel there needs to be a rhythmic element on the sixteenths from the 3rd verse onwards. Maybe a VERY soft shaker with irregular accents.

My 2 cents anyway

AlCraig wrote:Peter,
That's much better!
But....
You need another "voice" in the 2nd verse. Maybe introduce that guitar sound you used for the second solo in the last bar of the 1st verse and throughout (sparsely) the 2nd verse. But keep it VERY simple, almost pad-like, and off in the distance.
Or maybe the 2nd verse just needs the bass to come in.

Speaking of the second guitar solo, after the solo is over, pick up the entire track and move it about 10ms or so (experiment) to the right and push it further into the back ground. It needs to lay back with the snare.

And I feel there needs to be a rhythmic element on the sixteenths from the 3rd verse onwards. Maybe a VERY soft shaker with irregular accents.

My 2 cents anyway

Hi Al

thanks for listening and commenting.

You know, I was sitting there thinking, shaker 8).

Will also look at the other suggestions..thanks bud