Mac G5's Magma's HD questions

[The Tasmanian]

Hi Gents - I'm still running a dual 2.5 G5 mac with HD excel.
I have one G5 for spares.
These Macs are nearly 10 years old. The one Ive got now looks like it has power supply problems as it turns itself off randomly.
I'm not so keen on getting more G5s and a collection of organ donor's to keep it going. A newer computer makes sense.

I know some of you guys have used Magma chassis.
I never took much notice of all the Magma stuff that was released, so am very green in that department.

Can someone please inform me what my options are to get a newer computer, what type of Magma box, so I can continue using my 32 I/O HD rig.
I'm running HD 8.0 - and am happy to stay there.

Are they still making Magma boxes that would allow me to run almost any computer with a magma chassis?

How do these Magma chassis connect to the computer?

Need to get more life out of my HD rig.
Any info would be greatly appreciated
Thanx

[Manning]

IF you're happy to stay on PT 8 you have loads of options, most of which should be fairly cheap.

There are a number of different chassis(s) which take up to six PCI/PCIx cards and output to a PCIe connector.

As far as Macs, you'll be able to use all of the Intel Macs. A 2008 - 2010 model will be much faster, will run the current OSX and should be fairly cheap.

Moving to PT9 and above is when it starts to get hazy - eg. the Digidesign-branded chassis won't work, and it's the same for some (but not all) of the others.

When looking around, make sure you are getting exactly what you want: PCI/PCIx in, and PCIe out. There were other configurations (including the baffling PCIe in to PCIx out).

Finally, there are still some Windows motherboards around with PCI/PCIx slots on them, eg. the Intel S3200SHV, so you could even build a beefy Windows machine and not use a Magma at all.

[The Tasmanian]

Thats great info thanks Manning.
I wont do the PC hackintosh though, but great to know I can get a newer mac going.

So - how does the magma attach to the mac - via a pcie slot?.
I pretty sure my HD is PCIe

[Manning]

If your HD card is in a Mac G5, then it is PCIx, not PCIe (... unless you have the Dual 2.7 G5 which was the ONLY G5 to have PCIe slots. All other G5s have PCIx slots, and all G4s had PCI slots, which look identical but ran slower).

PCI and PCIx cards have the same physical structure (connectors and number of pins). PCIe cards have a *drastically* smaller connector. The pictures below aren't Pro Tools cards, but the connectors are the same (because they have to be).


PCI and PCIx cards have this connector - lots and lots of pins.


PCIe cards have this connector - very small number of pins.

All Macs since 2005 have only PCIe slots.

So if your HD cards are PCI or PCIx, you need a chassis which has the large slots to put the PCIx cards into, and a connector card (for the Mac) which needs to be the smaller PCIe format.

If however you look at your HD cards and they ARE PCIe, then forget the chassis - you don't need one. Buy any newer Mac and shove your cards into it.

[Sammas]

If your HD card is in a Mac G5, then it is PCIx, not PCIe (... unless you have the Dual 2.7 G5 which was the ONLY G5 to have PCIe slots. All other G5s have PCIx slots, and all G4s had PCI slots, which look identical but ran slower).

PCI and PCIx cards have the same physical structure (connectors and number of pins). PCIe cards have a *drastically* smaller connector. The pictures below aren't Pro Tools cards, but the connectors are the same (because they have to be).


PCI and PCIx cards have this connector - lots and lots of pins.


PCIe cards have this connector - very small number of pins.

All Macs since 2005 have only PCIe slots.

So if your HD cards are PCI or PCIx, you need a chassis which has the large slots to put the PCIx cards into, and a connector card (for the Mac) which needs to be the smaller PCIe format.

If however you look at your HD cards and they ARE PCIe, then forget the chassis - you don't need one. Buy any newer Mac and shove your cards into it.

The most recent dual processor G5's had PCIe slots. There were three models. http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/p ... slots.html

On a side note, Magma are very helpful people... but they kind of need to be, as their systems have varying revisions, etc. Some will do what you need... some will look like they will do what you need but won't actually work with intel macs. If you drop them an email they are usually pretty good at pointing you in the right direction.

[Manning]

Yeah good comment. For some reason I thought it was only the dual 2.7 G5 which had PCIe... but apparently that was PCIx anyway.

Anyway, if you have one of these later G5s (and thus have PCIe HD cards) then you don't need a chassis.

FWIW, my Digidesign branded six slot chassis (the one Rick now has) worked fine on my 2008 Intel Mac.

[Sammas]

Depending on how urgent your upgrade needs are, it might almost be worthwhile to wait 6 months while PT11 unravels.

The prices of HD systems are dropping like lead balloons, so it could be a whole lot cheaper/easier to just pinch some HD PCIe cards off ebay and bypass the whole expansion chassis saga - unless of course you want to max out your system to HD6 or something.

[ChrisW]

I just upgraded from a crappy Mbox2 PTLE, that i wasn't using, to PT10 native for $399.
I can obviously use whatever interface i want, and work with collaborators' PT sessions with ease - albeit with the native disadvantages (whatever they are).
Bargain in my book!
I spent literally thousands keeping a current PT system going in the late 90's. Now I have a current PT system for $399, and a free upgrade to PT11 I think.

[The Tasmanian]

Great info - thanks so much guys
Yes I checked - my G5 is PCIX - bummer.

I like the idea of finding a bargain PCIe card though
Is tempting, the idea of pissing it all off - and going native.

[Barney Loveland]

Im holding my breath that my G5 doesn't up go in smoke whilst I wait to see what happens with thunderbolt and native. But worst case I can pick up a new old G5 and still run PT8 HD.

[The Tasmanian]

Me too barney - I may have only a power supply problem.
Started 2 days ago - just switched off.
Has been doing it at increasing intervals since.
I'll try and find a powersupply / or another G5 somewhere...really bad timing - huge deadlines.
I've got my laptop so not all is lost - hey we must have the same laptops too?

[audioio]

Magma PE6R4-I 6 slot chassis... breakout cable with a PCie card that went in my 'modern' mac

Yep. Manning mentioned a 6-slot which works with Intel Macs. That sounds like this one.

But if you have an older Digidesign "64bit" chassis, there's a good chance it won't work with Intel Macs. Thgose older ones had Intel or DEC bridge chips. You need one with a Pericom bridge chip. There are two difficult issues here:
1. The 64bit chassis mainboard has at least one Pericom chip and that's not the bridge chip.
2. Magma change specs without calling the product a different name. They're supposed to have model numbers, but sometimes these are on stickers which either fall off or were never put on in the first place.

I eventually had to photograph the mainboard to get them to identify it.

But here's what a rep at Magma told me:

P7R4 – 32-bit 7 Slot PCI expansion system (Magma only) – option for PCI or PCIe host card (x1 speed only = 32-bits)
P7R464 – 64-bit 7 Slot PCI expansion system (Magma / used to be distributed and branded by Digi about 4-5 years ago) – NO PCIe host card option when using with a MacPro (compato problems with the Intel and DEC chipset that was used in this solution).
Expansion HD – Magma was not a part of this development – short lived Digi solution – no longer available thru Digi (or anywhere to my knowledge).
PE6R4 – 6 Slot PCIe (x8 host) to PCI-X expansion system (Magma / distributed and branded by Digi until they rolled into the PCIe to PCIe 7 Slot solution by Magma = EB7) – comes with PCIe host card and has PCI(x) slots for “legacy” PCI(x) cards
EB7 – 7 Slot PCIe (x8 host) to PCIe expansion system (Magma / currently distributed and branded by Digi)

If you have one of these Digi-branded chassis, you can get a mainboard replacement for about $1500. It's a doddle to pull the old one out and fit the new one.

If you don't have or need that many HD cards, a 4-slot might do it, but again you have to get a recent one. I managed to pick one up for less than $200 (and then had to pay almost $400 incl shipping for an ExpressCard adaptor to connect it to my Macbook Pro). These is an issue with some Macbook Pros (5,1 and 5,2 I think). When you connect them, the menu bar goes a bit funny, but they're fully functional and Pro Tools and HD cards run really well.

There's space for up to four hard drives inside the 4-slot as well, but the problem there is finding a controller card that works with Snow Leopard. I've tried a card with a Silicon image 3124 chip which has drivers supposedly compatible with Snow Leopard, but it doesn't work. I tried another card which didn't work. The only one I haven't is Areca and their tech support can't say whether it will work since there are no Intel Macs with PCI slots! It's a shame but that of course is not the main game.

[The Tasmanian]

Thanks for all the great info guys.
I'll keep an eye open for a Magma PE6R4 - could be a wise move to get more life outa my HD -
If anyone is selling a suitable PCIX Magma box please get in touch.

[berkfinger]

Hi Chris,

I have had the exact same problem with my g5 - for about a week last year and then a few days recently.

Both times I pulled out all the cards, gently dusted them and reseated them. Both times problem seems to have gone away. It's been solid since I did this, but before hand it got to the point where it wouldn't last 5 minutes without turning itself off!

I read somewhere that although it looks like a power supply issue, it may actually be something to do with the graphics card shorting out and making the mac shut down rather than fry...

[The Tasmanian]

Hey Bfinga.
From the searching I did, it is a powersupply issue on a few models of G5, some of them leak coolant, others just die. Quite a few people with the problem.
Some people get around it by running the machine on a lower power saving setting, but slows machine down.
We ran 2xg5's everyday for many years with no problem.
Grab another one while you can for spares.
I found one on Ebay in Syd for $75.
>Gotta move to PCIE soon, cards are becoming dirt cheap. ( & SH PCIE Mac's)

[audioio]

Resurrecting this old thread with some information which may be of interest to some of you...

There's space for up to four hard drives inside the 4-slot as well, but the problem there is finding a controller card that works with Snow Leopard. I've tried a card with a Silicon image 3124 chip which has drivers supposedly compatible with Snow Leopard, but it doesn't work. I tried another card which didn't work. The only one I haven't is Areca and their tech support can't say whether it will work since there are no Intel Macs with PCI slots! It's a shame but that of course is not the main game.

I just bought a used Areca ARC1110 RAID controller card from an ebay seller in the US. It has four SATA connectors. I paid about $60. I thought it was worth a shot because if it doesn't work I haven't blown much dough.

Test set-up is a Macbook Pro 5,1: 2.93 C2D with 4GB RAM (should really up this to 8) running OSX 10.8.5, Magma 4-slot chassis connected via ExpressCard, 2 WD Caviar Black 1TB drives.

After installing the Areca software and fitting the card in the chassis, the Macbook actually booted. Other cards I'd tried hung. That was a good first step. However, the card appears to have a fault... the fan won't start, but that my not matter if it doesn't get too hot. A firmware update doesn't fix it. It may just be the fan's power connector or cable (which plugs into the card). I'll investigate that further.

The Areca web-based management worked as it should. Building the RAID took seconds. Building a "volume set" took about 10 hours. Once that was done, the regular OSX "drive not intialized" message came up. I then used DiskUtility to format it. It appears as a single drive; all RAID functions are taken care of by the Areca.

I have yet to test it with a Pro Tools recording, but so far so good. As I indicated before, none of this was certain because even though the software is theoretically compatible, there are no Intel Macs with PCI slots. I expect PCIe would work just as well and products from other vendors (like Silicon Image or Highpoint) would more likely work.

For any of you with a Magma PCI/X or PCIe chassis, this bodes well. You can have your drives connected via the "extended" PCI bus rather than Firewire and not need any more physical space.

I'll try a 24- or 32-track PT record over the next few days and report back.

[audioio]

Configured two drives as a RAID 1. The "volume set" (what the host system sees) failed and was "degraded". Not sure why one drive dropped out as both drives seem to be OK and so do the links to them. Trying again... another 10 hours!?

[The Tasmanian]

David - you are a real trooper!
I did entertain the Magma path for a while.
For me now I'm just SO over Protools & especially Avid as a company - although still have a HD rig on PT8/G5 when (if) i need it - otherwise, Reaper is my chosen path these days.
But still interested in your quest.

[audioio]

David - you are a real trooper!

I think that's a polite way of saying stubborn!

I did entertain the Magma path for a while.

I've always liked the stability and low latency of the TDM systems. I've had too many weird things happen on native systems. But, still, I only went this way because I picked up the Magma for <$200 and three HD cards for $400. So it really was a cheap way in. The Magma/PTHD combo has been really solid since I've had it. Getting drives to work with it is icing on the cake.

For me now I'm just SO over Protools & especially Avid as a company

I can understand your attitude towards Avid. It's their pricing mainly, I suppose. But the basic product is good. I fear, though, that HDX might be the end of them, not because it's no good but it doesn't seem to be selling like hotcakes. Computers are so much more powerful and so the market has changed. And I do ask myself why it is that the latency of native systems hasn't really improved. Even HD Native has an onboard mixer thingy to fudge it. So, while that's the case, I'd like to have a DSP-based system if I can.

Just gotta get a permanent PT10 license for when my ATP one expires!

[The Tasmanian]

Agree 100% - my HD rig never misses a beat - ever : Solid!
Like you - I'm also not sure that Avid will survive - and will not invest any more with them.
I once worked out I could have pretty much bought a house with all the money I have given Avid/Digidesign!
(Ive been using PT's since the Audiomedia 3 card!)

..and they still continue to cripple hardware and software to force upgrades that are really very minor.
Now HDX means all of my past investment in 3rd party plug ins is down the drain....
Their business model is indicative of whats wrong with companies that are focused on shareholders/income as opposed to the customer. Huge Fail. Damn pity.
Reaper cost me $60 > is constantly being upgraded, and can work with just about any hardware.

But I am still interested in possibly running my HD rig off my laptop - and your R&D with the Magma.

[audioio]

..and they still continue to cripple hardware and software to force upgrades that are really very minor.

Yep. PT9 was a non-event (except for freeing us from the hardware requirements).

Now HDX means all of my past investment in 3rd party plug ins is down the drain....

Well nothing is obsolete until it fails to do what you need it to do. Keep using your PTHD8 until it breaks forever or until your workflows are no longer accommodated!

I've got mixed feelings about this. For years people were saying that Avid was behind... other DAWs had track freeze, faster-than-realtime bounce, blah blah blah. It probably didn't help that Avid claimed the fixed-point engine was superior, then turned around and trumpeted their floaring-point AAX when it arrived. But I get the feeling that all those people who whinged about the limitations of the TDM platform are the same ones who are now whinging about how the new software won't run on the old gear. Avid couldn't win no matter what they did!

Their business model is indicative of whats wrong with companies that are focused on shareholders/income as opposed to the customer. Huge Fail. Damn pity.

Yes, it's the disease of the age. In a way, Apple is worse. This image sort of sums it up:
http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/storage/Mac-Pro-v-Old-Mac-Pro.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1393488924009
Instead of making machines for professionals, they now make eye candy designed to extract the maximum amount from the mug consumer. You almost can't repair it, or even upgrade the RAM, without breaking it.

I do wonder how smaller vendors like Merging (Pyramix) make it. Their sales must be miniscule compared even to HDX systems.

But I am still interested in possibly running my HD rig off my laptop - and your R&D with the Magma.

I'll keep you posted. I rebuilt the volume last night and it took less than 3 hours. I suppose there was something wrong first time round.

[audioio]

The volume I built last night is holding and seems stable. It took a quarter of the time of the previous build, so I guess things went more smoothly this time.

Just tried some PT sessions.

Test 1: 32 tracks - probably a stretch even on a 7200rpm WD Caviar Black. Recorded OK but wouldn't play back without DAE error (PCI bus). Tried changing the Playback Engine from 48 Voices on 1 DSP to 32 voices on 2 DSPs. Still unstable and caused a kernel panic.

Test 2: 24 tracks. Recorded OK. 48V/1DSP caused DAE errors. Changing the Playback Engine to 32V/2DSP caused a kernel panic. On restart, playback was OK.

There may be some optimisations I can make on the RAID. ATM it's set to SATAII speed, which these drives can do, but maybe SATA 1 might be safer (although that might throttle the track count / data rate in a session). It's probably safe to say that you'd want to set your playback engine before opening or creating a session.

My original plan was to have four drives set up in pairs as RAID 1s. I figure I'd rarely want to record more than 32 tracks (and with my current interfaces, 2 96IOs and a 16ch ADAT, I couldn't exceed that anyway). So 16 tracks per RAID is probably doable, especially on the more conservative playback engine settings.

Of course, this doesn't include any plug-ins. I really should max out the RAM on this machine too.