Turtlerock Forum

Just wondering what kind of experiences you guys have got with outstanding payments from clients. I'm in a situation were the band mislead their label regarding the amount of time they were accumulating in the studio while misleading me that everything was ok with the label and that the label would pay. The bill is $4.5k, invoices were presented 2 months ago. Neither the band nor the label talk to each other straight and i've been told that part payment would be made "next week" every week for the last month - nothing. Seems like there is contractual disputes and all kinds of crap going on and i'm the one who is going to be shafted. I'm trying to be patient but it's shitting me.

If it's not too late, hang on to the masters.

If it is too late, release the masters yourself and recoup that way.

Sounds like you've been patient for long enough...

I'd put consistent heat on the band so they make you more of a priority. Currently they think they can hold you over and try to get the cash out of the label - not your problem, I would have thought.

A letter of demand from a solicitor might rattle their cage enough to get them dealing with you. You'd want to lead up to that by saying that if it isn't sorted out in 7/14 days, you'll put it in the hands of your solicitor. And then follow it up by saying that if they don't sort it out then you will instruct your lawyer to sue. If they're getting uncomfortable (which hopefully they are), drop them some bait and suggest you'll be prepared to take payment on terms, say 3 equal monthly instalments. That might be something they can cope with. If you can get them committing to something, you've got some traction and cash flow, which is better than where you are now. For $4,500, threatening litigation is probably a bit of a bluff given the costs involved, but proceedings have been issued for less before, with successful results.

They're a couple of initial thoughts. I do a lot of debt collection work as part of my job, including occasionally having to collect overdue debts from my own clients :( So they're tactics I often adopt.

Overall, its a matter of persistence and continual reminders that inaction will have consequences for them, so they elevate you to the top of their priority list.

i have been through this many times
you just have to learn the signs and dont get caught out again

the reality is its time to start ringing the labels account department and asking some hard questions

warning
this is going to get you busted by the a&r guy because he is going to get a serve from his boss about going overbudget , once you get nasty about a bill a label wont use you for a while but in my experience its better to not work with those clients no how big a break it looks like

if they have not got the bucks and neither have you what are you doing..?, sooner or later things will come good and next time you deal with that lot you just have to get paid up front.



at one point polygram owed me 15 k and i very nearly lost my business over it because i was carded up to the hilt

the only reason i actually got paid was a staged a sit in the label AND some of the guys in inxs just happened to walk past with the managing director and stopped to say hello to me , " what are you doing here they
said "trying to get these crooks to pay me after 4 months of promises"
the managing director smiled nervously took me into the accountants office blasted her
paid me and that was that
i did not get another job from polygram again

the thing this is i am still around and polygram have gone

I find offering a discount for full payment at time of booking does wonders. It has to be a significant number of hours (I have a minimum of 20 hours to get the discount) and a smallish discount 5% - 10% thereabouts. But it gets me paid in full up front - I really like that. :D

Then there is never any dispute with the client. At the end of each session I inform them of what they have used and how much is left and its all written down in my diary.

Very hard to go wrong. I reckon labels would even like that - I know the arts council do. ;-)

I know this doesn't help the present situation - but reduces the chance of it occuring in the future.

Thanks for the advice guys. No resolution yet. I have a few options, I obviously own copyright to the recordings until they are paid for, the band has a few mixes up on myspace and it will break their balls if i tell them to pull them down because it's their only on-line presence at the moment and they are trying to get something happening overseas. That's some leverage. Obviously if they release anything without paying the same applies. As far as the label goes, they're pretty independent but not unknown, apparently he's known to pay up but the question is when and in what order of the cue, I don't think this band is his main priority at the moment. I have an email record from him saying that he will pay for all the session time so I guess that's some kind of legal record. This is the first time I've worked for a signed band so yeh, lessons learnt.

Other than that i'll be buying a few copies of dark manuscripts on voodoo from some obscure place on the internet .... I wonder if i can claim them on tax?

url wrote:I obviously own copyright to the recordings until they are paid for

Hmm...is that what your contract says or is that your view of things? It's an interesting issue - the songwriter obviously owns the copyright in the song, but does the engineer have copyright in the mix created in his studio? Is a mix an artistic work capable of copyright? Never looked at this myself - anyone else got any views? I always understood that the studio has a lien over the master until payment is made, but never thought about it from a copyright perspective.

If you have something in your contract with the band that says that all copyright resides with you until the bill is paid in full - more power to ya.

I have an email record from him saying that he will pay for all the session time so I guess that's some kind of legal record

If that is what it says, then it's an admission of liability and good enough to sue on. Good leverage to have.

Bets of luck with it.

It's always been my understanding that the engineer/studio owns the copyright of the recording, unless it is sold as part of the recording contract.

An example outside the industry (that i have come across) If you ask a Graphics Designer to come up with a new business card for you, you can get him to print the cards, but you can't take his design for your card and get it printed elsewhere without his approval or purchase of copyright. (I had real trouble explaining this to a bush cocky friend of mine - he had real trouble understanding intellectual property and intangibles).

My advice ... be polite and firm! Good luck!

Yeah, but in that example, who came up with the design - the designer. Whereas the band came up with the song, so they own the copyright in the song. The engineer recorded it, so they control the masters, but what artistic wok did they come up with that they own? The mix? Possibly, I just don't know.

Astrovic

Hmm...is that what your contract says or is that your view of things?

Astro raises a really valid point - how many of you guys have a set of terms that you hand over at the time of booking? Its a really, really good idea. As many a lawyer will tell you, its the one who rules the paperwork that holds the aces.

While I'm no copyright lawyer, I suspect Astro is right and that (nothing else being agreed on a contract) the band own the copyright in the recorded performance, not the studio and not the engineer. The mix engineer might be able to claim some element of copyright if he/she adds something original into the blend, but courts probably won't see the "art" in moving a slider back and forward. Adding a layer of varnish to the Mona Lisa doesn't mean Leonardo has to give up his royalties.

The best a studio can do is hold on to the masters until the account is paid, and even then, it can get nasty (in the absence of any contract) to enforce this right to hold back the masters. The real legal position is that the studio may have very little in the way of rights other than to sue the entity that booked the time for an unpaid debt.

two issues going on here with copyright

the copyright of the recorded version of the song

and the owner of the actual song

the songwriter owns the song , however whoever paid for the recording of the song ( ie the masters) owns the copyright to those recordings of the song and only that version



in most cases the owner is the record label or the band themselves sometimes it might be be a third party like for instance triple jjj ( live radio versions)


the hassle i am reading about is you have not been paid at all right..?

in which case the obvious conclusion is nobody has any right to use the recordings for anything
so the current owner of the recordings is you -the studioand technically you own the copyright of the recorded version and can release or destroy the masters at will

you can easily stop other parties using the tapes , you can probably even try to use them yourself if you could be bothered

but what you really have to do is get the label to pay for them as promised

this situation is not unusual and i bet the reason you have not been paid is the label has no money at the moment
they will be chasing somebody else for your money i promise you



try the "mate i am going away for christmas on the 7 dec" phone call
then call the label every day , twice a day untill you get back up the important guy to pay list.
remember this situation and all the stories you get for next time around

btw its VERY hard to get paid the week of christmas so dont let this drag on, the next payment after christmas with labels is usually in feb

it's interesting to compare the views of the lawyers (chris p and myself) with the views of the studio owners on this issue.

Like Chris P, I'm not a copyright lawyer, but I deal in enough intellectual property issues (trade marks and brand names are more my thing) that I should be able to get my head around this one fairly quickly. I'll look into it and see if I can add any observations from a lawyer's perspective that will assist the studio guys.

two issues going on here with copyright

the copyright of the recorded version of the song

and the owner of the actual song

the songwriter owns the song , however whoever paid for the recording of the song ( ie the masters) owns the copyright to those recordings of the song and only that version

in most cases the owner is the record label or the band themselves sometimes it might be be a third party like for instance triple jjj ( live radio versions)

Rick is bang on the mark - just had a look into it and his post was spot on. I'm sure he's had cause to look into it before!

Thus, the studio is only going to be able to claim some form of copyright in the recording if the contract gives them some rights to do so.

I've tried the nice email "got bills, feed the kids, need the money" and got no reply. Previous phone calls have always ended in "the money will be in next week" and it never is. So no more Mr Nice Guy, they have two weeks to pay the first instalment or I'll demand that the tracks be taken off myspace.

Correct, I haven't been paid a cent and no, there is no contract of any description, my error - long story, i've worked with the band for a number of years. The sessions started as pre-production for another studio, then morphed into more and more session time until all tracks were completed here.

To quote Rick

"the hassle i am reading about is you have not been paid at all right..?
in which case the obvious conclusion is nobody has any right to use the recordings for anything so the current owner of the recordings is you -the studioand technically you own the copyright of the recorded version and can release or destroy the masters at will
you can easily stop other parties using the tapes"

This is what I thought, how can they claim the recordings when they haven't paid for them? I'm not using the songs, I'm saying my recordings, my work, the product of myself and my studio cannot be used on-line or anywhere else without my permission, and I withdraw my permission in two weeks if I'm not paid.

I suspect also that the label are short of money, they have a few other projects on at the moment, but you know, that's not my problem. I'm a reasonable person, they can talk to me but if they are going to stay silent he can go get fraked (Battlestar Galactica anyone?).

He's going to get the singer screaming like a banshee in his ear once I threaten to pull myspace.

http://collect.myspace.com/misc/terms.html

9. Copyright Policy. You may not post, modify, distribute, or reproduce in any way any copyrighted material, trademarks, or other proprietary information belonging to others without obtaining the prior written consent of the owner of such proprietary rights. It is the policy of MySpace.com to terminate Membership privileges of any Member who repeatedly infringes the copyright rights of others upon receipt of prompt notification to MySpace.com by the copyright owner or the copyright owner's legal agent. Without limiting the foregoing, if you believe that your work has been copied and posted on the MySpace Services in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide our Copyright Agent with the following information: (i) an electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright interest; (ii) a description of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed; (iii) a description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the MySpace Services; (iv) your address, telephone number, and email address; (v) a written statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law; (vi) a statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your notice is accurate and that you are the copyright owner or authorized to act on the copyright owner's behalf. MySpace.com's Copyright Agent for notice of claims of copyright infringement can be reached as follows: Copyright Agent, MySpace, Inc., 8391 Beverly Blvd., #349, Los Angeles, CA 90048; Facsimile: (310) 969-7394; Attn: Copyright Agent; Email: copyrightagent@myspace.com.

Here's some fine print from Level 7 Studios website (Daniel Jones, Savage Garden)

"It is the clients responsibility to set limitations on all expenses arising from the recording session. All tapes and materials remain the property of LEVEL 7 STUDIOS until payment has been received in full. If payment has not been made within one hundred and fifty (150) days, LEVEL 7 STUDIOS reserves the right to exploit the recordings to recoup its 'losses'."

... If payment has not been made within one hundred and fifty (150) days, LEVEL 7 STUDIOS reserves the right to exploit the recordings to recoup its 'losses'."

Wow, I'm surprised they wait that long. I'd generally do 60 days unless I was dealing with a very large compnay when I might extend to 90.

i have a court hound that owes me money. she has taken so many people to court for many different things

she has let it be known if i contact her again she will proceed with charges of harrasment......

That's when you get a collection agency.

If you're owed enough money to warrant it, I'd just sue her. Let her counterclaim for "harassment" and see how far she gets (my guess - not very far at all).

The courts see idiots like this all the time, and judges et al become pretty good at picking them. You just have to be patient but forceful.