Turtlerock Forum

Imagine you had to reign in the dynamics of a acoustic guitar part, but loved the sound you already had.

(an example would be strumming ala intro of Eagles Take it Easy perhaps.

You just wanted to even it out some…

What would you reach for?

Something, that doesn't mess with the existing harmonic complexity … transparent, acoustic guitar compression.

Avalon would be a great option and cranesong, although I have no experience with cranesong, I have been led to beleive they would be an ideal choice. Of the less expensive options, Aphex compellor would bhe a great choice or going even cheaper a RNC. Also a not too heavey handed paralell comp with any of the above comps while leaving the original signal uncompressed would be a great way to keep the original feel and sound intact.

Strumming I would go an 1176 12:1 slow attack so the pick rake just gets through and release set so it get's back to zero just before each strum, knocking 3 - 5 db off.
It won't be transparent, but it will sound awesome.

Automation?

FabFilter Pro-C

Kurt wrote:Automation?

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to reply, very cool of you.

I tried all the suggestions that I could, with the existing gear and plugins I have.

Honestly, I think fader riding is the only answer for me.

I have really yet found something other than just riding it.

If you want to hear the guitar part in question here is it.

This is as tracked, just maton messiah, KM84, JLM TG500 with 80hz HPF on.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13120658/Acoustic.wav

I've found my old tube and germanium pres provide a subtle (to not-so-subtle) compression - perhaps something like that is worth a try?

Sounds Fantastic !!
Aahhh..... KM84 ... hard to beat.
Only thing to come close are other vintage favs, AKG451E or EB , CK1 combo.

Transparent plugin to keep a lid on things would smooth it nicely.
Maybe try some demos to get the job done.

Focusrite D3
DMG Audio Compassion
FAbFilter Pro-C
Sonnox Oxford Dynamics

Cheers
Matt

Melda Productions MAutovolume can automate fader rides for you. There are other fader automation plugs too. Fader automation and a very subtle compressor could be just the ticket.

This is how I like to mix acoustic guitars.

If you have used more than one mic, then split them out onto separate channels, duplicating the more sparkly mic onto two channels. If you only used 1 mic, then split that out onto 3 separate channels.

In my mind I split the three tracks into low, mids and highs.

For the highs, use a fet compressor and HP at around 300Hz or wherever the boominess is in the acoustic. I find fet comps to be grabby on the low end.

For mids, HP and LP but use gentle rolloffs. I like opto compressors for this channel.

For lows, still HP but at the frequency below which is all rubbish. 60Hz or thereabouts. I then use a vari-mu like a Phoenix.

The idea is to then work on getting a balance between the 3 that:

- keeps the level tight no matter what is going on
- removes any pumping artifacts
- enhances the detail of the high strings
- gives a tight and solid low end without being boomy.

Experiment lots using filters ITB and desk eq if you have it. Mute and unmute to hear what each comp is doing and work to strike a good balance between all 3.

If I'm tracking then I'd use a KM84 and a 4038, with the 4038 providing the bottom end and the KM84 providing the detail.

I also tend to use parallel compression (guitar buss) with a pair of distressors and a pultec-style EQ, just to make it jump out.

I find that every time I just use one compressor, I hear it too much. Using 3 ideally should give you the best of each style (fet, opto and varimu).

Chris

cLoudBase wrote:Sounds Fantastic !!
Aahhh..... KM84 ... hard to beat.
Only thing to come close are other vintage favs, AKG451E or EB , CK1 combo.

Transparent plugin to keep a lid on things would smooth it nicely.
Maybe try some demos to get the job done.

Focusrite D3
DMG Audio Compassion
FAbFilter Pro-C
Sonnox Oxford Dynamics

Cheers
Matt

The KM84 solved an awful lot of problems for me. I spent years, chasing different mics, different strings, different guitars etc. I got it of a forum member here, it wasn't cheap, but it was worth every penny. The same can be said of the U87 I got.

Thanks again everyone for the helpful suggestions. I will look through all that I can. If I find something that really floats my boat, I will update the thread.

thanks again

Peter

Linear wrote:This is how I like to mix acoustic guitars.

If you have used more than one mic, then split them out onto separate channels, duplicating the more sparkly mic onto two channels. If you only used 1 mic, then split that out onto 3 separate channels.

In my mind I split the three tracks into low, mids and highs.

For the highs, use a fet compressor and HP at around 300Hz or wherever the boominess is in the acoustic. I find fet comps to be grabby on the low end.

For mids, HP and LP but use gentle rolloffs. I like opto compressors for this channel.

For lows, still HP but at the frequency below which is all rubbish. 60Hz or thereabouts. I then use a vari-mu like a Phoenix.

The idea is to then work on getting a balance between the 3 that:

- keeps the level tight no matter what is going on
- removes any pumping artifacts
- enhances the detail of the high strings
- gives a tight and solid low end without being boomy.

Experiment lots using filters ITB and desk eq if you have it. Mute and unmute to hear what each comp is doing and work to strike a good balance between all 3.

If I'm tracking then I'd use a KM84 and a 4038, with the 4038 providing the bottom end and the KM84 providing the detail.

I also tend to use parallel compression (guitar buss) with a pair of distressors and a pultec-style EQ, just to make it jump out.

I find that every time I just use one compressor, I hear it too much. Using 3 ideally should give you the best of each style (fet, opto and varimu).

Chris

I just wanted to say a special thanks for this reply, really detailed and greatly appreciated

thank you

Peter

Aahhh..... KM84 ... hard to beat.

KM85 is my choice as the capsule has a built in roll off, so you can get in tight without the proximity boominess.

What Chris describes above is what we use in broadcast transmission. Multiband compression and limiting in our Optimods typically splits into 5 bands in which individual eqs can be tweaked and different compression and limiting applied before remixing into a single feed for the transmitter at which stage Brick wall limiting is applied for transmitter protection.
These multiband or discriminate audio processing techniques were conceived in the 60s in the recording studio environment and then applied to broadcast. Below is an excerpt on Mike Dorroughs development of the concept and invention of the first Multiband Compressor or as he called it DAP-310 Discriminate Audio Processor.

" Mike Dorrough grew up with a love for radio and an insatiable desire to understand how sound devices worked. As a young man in the early 1960's Mike worked for a recording company owned by Casey Kasum and Bob Hudson, as a sound mixer. During that period he devised a revolutionary multi-band or DISCRIMINATE AUDIO PROCESSING method that provided greater loudness with no reduction in fidelity through achieving optimum relationships between FREQUENCY, TIME and AMPLITUDE in the complex waveform. The system worked so well it helped to make Dorrough a much sought-after sound engineer, leading to a position with the legendary Motown in Detroit. He left Motown for RCA in the mid-sixties with high hopes of employing his prototypes in even more diverse recording environments. Continuing to refine the concept, it didn't take Dorrough long to realize that his system had even greater implications for broadcasters and in 1965 one of his first Multi-Band Composite Audio Processors was installed at KGFJ. The improvement in perceived loudness was spectacular. Shortly thereafter he left RCA for KRLA in Los Angeles. It became clear by 1971 that Mike would have to set up his own factory to produce the unit. With the able assistance of his wife Kay, Mike launched "Dorrough Electronics". By 1975 a new technical lexicon defined a whole new "audio culture". Terms used widely in the audio field today, like "Multi-band Processing", "Psycho-Acoustics", "Relative Audio-Power to Peak Amplitude", and "Sound-Density" were coined, or first popularized by Dorrough to describe the effects and benefits of the Discriminate Audio Processor"

Some reading material herehttp://www.dorrough.com/mike.html
and here
http://www.dorrough.com/dorrozeum.html

Mike and I correspond occasionally about Vintage Broadcast console restoration, he has an impressive collection of early Gates, Collins, RCA and Altec broadcast consoles, compressors, limiters and transmitters

Hey Peter, assuming you're in a DAW try this: Massey L2007 plugin. Knock down the peaks and ride the fader. Transparent and Simplez..... Add a touch of compression with Slates VTM if you need the guitar to sound a little fuller in the lo mids.

Great post Chris, just what I needed to hear for a current project.
Cheers

Phoenix wrote:Hey Peter, assuming you're in a DAW try this: Massey L2007 plugin. Knock down the peaks and ride the fader. Transparent and Simplez..... Add a touch of compression with Slates VTM if you need the guitar to sound a little fuller in the lo mids.

Never used any Massey stuff I will see if I can demo it


Cheers


Wiz

All of Massey's designs are exceptional. I started taking the L2007 limiter seriously after reading a Mike Shipely (RIP) article about how he used it on voice and acoustic instruments on the Alison Krauss record he made and it is indeed far more transparent than any Waves limiter like the L1/L2 etc... It won't mess with the decay, sustain and release part of your signal. PS. The demo versions won't allow you to save your settings so print the thing!

Phoenix wrote:All of Massey's designs are exceptional. I started taking the L2007 limiter seriously after reading a Mike Shipely (RIP) article about how he used it on voice and acoustic instruments on the Alison Krauss record he made and it is indeed far more transparent than any Waves limiter like the L1/L2 etc... It won't mess with the decay, sustain and release part of your signal. PS. The demo versions won't allow you to save your settings so print the thing!

Pro Stoolz only for that plug in 8)

they have a couple of VST for Mac plugs.. not that one..

I am Logic Guy...

oh well, perhaps at some stage in the future

thanks anyways

Wiz