Turtlerock Forum

I have long been interested in sending out a survey to all those who work in the production of audio, in some shape or form.

The idea behind this survey is to gather data on us, where we work, what we do, and a little about our background. I am interested in this purely out of curiosity; there is no hidden agenda here. I think it would be a positive thing for audio folk to have an idea of what our industry is comprised of, what areas we’re all working in, what tools we use, and some other misc info like our view on piracy etc.

I’m going to roll this thing out once a year, so we can see if / how things are changing over time.

The survey device doesn’t request or store any personal information, it is entirely anonymous, well, Google is tracking your every move I’m sure, but I don’t have access to their big brother servers now do I?

So what happens with the response data?

It isn’t going to be sold to the highest bidder, or anyone for that matter. It won’t be made available to marketing types looking to drive cross-media vortals, generate synergistic e-commerce or synthesize 24/365 content.

A summary of the results will be published here on Turtlerock, and likely be published in the AES, under a creative commons licence, meaning that anyone can download it for free, anytime.

Please forward this link to anyone you think would be interested.

http://bit.ly/1iCEYS2

The survey will be open until midnight, 30th June 2014.

There have been over 250 responses to date

Cheers

Mark

Mark,
Question about the job categories. What's your definition of technician?

Hi Mark, I've completed your survey and I'd like to point out what I believe is going to give you a statistical error.
It's my guess that largest percentage of people in the music/audio industry in Australia are part time employed,
or doing it as a significant hobby. So when I went looking for my field of employment "Outside the industry" (a graphic artist) nothing.

As I said, I could find not "employed full time outside the audio industry", it might not matter that I might have spent between $60~80,000 in studio equipment or toured as a keyboard player for a living for many many years, or written songs that have made it on to main stream FM, the fact is now that I have a real full-time job.

My equipment and the instruments that I own still get used on a 2 to 3 times a week, however I would hazard a guess to say that I have not made very much money out of music out of music in the past for five years.

I do it because I love you and I think it's entirely conceivable in this day and age that you will find many other
people like myself with 50k+ studios, that have produced many albums or written songs that have been on radio
that don't make a living out of music.

I wonder if the majority of people responding to the survey will be making a full-time music living from music
As we both know it can be exceedingly difficult, (and I wanted to raise a family) that said I applaud your effort
to bring some statistical knowledge to the industry I'm happy to further contribute anyway that I can.

I was thinking about you Rob when I put that one in. I don't actually know what the difference is between a technician and a studio technician. I might end up combining the two jobs in the end. It's more about what you see yourself as I guess, more-so than my own definition. If you had to label yourself, do you think 'technician' or 'studio technician' better describes your work?

peterfitz wrote:Hi Mark, I've completed your survey and I'd like to point out what I believe is going to give you a statistical error. It's my guess that largest percentage of people in the music/audio industry in Australia are part time employed, or doing it as a significant hobby. So when I went looking for my field of employment "Outside the industry" (a graphic artist) nothing.

As I said, I could find not "employed full time outside the audio industry", it might not matter that I might have spent between $60~80,000 in studio equipment or toured as a keyboard player for a living for many many years, or written songs that have made it on to main stream FM, the fact is now that I have a real full-time job.

My equipment and the instruments that I own still get used on a 2 to 3 times a week, however I would hazard a guess to say that I have not made very much money out of music out of music in the past for five years.

I do it because I love you and I think it's entirely conceivable in this day and age that you will find many other
people like myself with 50k+ studios, that have produced many albums or written songs that have been on radio
that don't make a living out of music.

I wonder if the majority of people responding to the survey will be making a full-time music living from music
As we both know it can be exceedingly difficult, (and I wanted to raise a family) that said I applaud your effort
to bring some statistical knowledge to the industry I'm happy to further contribute anyway that I can.

Hi Peter, thanks for the feedback.

The employment categories used are standard and are common on surveys making such enquiries, I readily admit I copied them from other surveys. The survey isn't designed to capture data from folks who hobbyist however. If you work full time as a plumber, but record you and your mates on the weekend, that is, you do not work in the audio industry but you partake in similar duties as an unpaid hobby – well you won’t find a category for that (regardless of how much you spend on gear). You won’t find a category for engineers who only work in audio when donating their services to charity or as a prize. There are many possibilities. Technically hobbyists do make up a portion of the ‘industry’ as they contribute to the economy of audio, so I take your point.

This won’t necessarily generate any statistical errors however unless inferential statistics is used, and used poorly. Simple descriptive statistics won’t generate errors. In reporting, a statement such as “of the 5 possible choices for employment, 78% of respondents selected ‘part-time’ employment” is perfectly valid, as long as it was made clear that there were only 5 choices and what those choices were. I am not inferring to the populous that 78% of the audio industry in Australia is employed part-time – doing that would be an error. I am also not stating that of those who responded, 78% are employed part-time - they reported in a 13AFC question that was their employment status, but they likely chose the one that best fit out of the options, if it was not on the list. This doesn't introduce statistical errors, but it does limit the conclusions that can be made.

If you’re not employed in the audio industry, by yourself, or someone else, then you won’t be able to tell me your audio industry employment status, which is what the question refers to. Perhaps the question could be better worded, and again, thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts on this.

No doubt there is much to learn in designing surveys, and perhaps more time could have been invested before launching, I’ll cop to that. This is the first of many, hopefully, and in next year’s survey, there will be many things to tweak, add and remove. It’s a start, nothing more, nothing less.

So despite the survey having lots of different job descriptions at the beginning, it was more about the audio engineering side than the music industry as a whole?
As a musician I found a lot of questions were heavily audio weighted - have you been to audio engineering college, do you use tape etc….
That's fine, but pure audio engineering and studio work is just a small part of the Aussie music scene as a whole. Which again is fine, if that's what the survey is aiming to investigate (audio engineering).

What happened to "Arranger"? It's been deleted, which will screw up my survey response.

My primary occupation is as an arranger. Secondarily I work as a composer (whenever such work arises, which sadly isn't often). These are completely different roles - as noted (in an earlier post I made which you arbitrarily deleted) in the US they don't even belong to the same union.

On that note - being a forum admin does NOT give you the right to delete posts, even in a thread you created. This is not YOUR forum to do with as you will.

If a post breaches community guidelines then you may of course exercise your moderation power, but apart from that, you don't get to do whatever you want.


( EDIT : actually it is ok for Mark to do what ever he likes was a mod.. he built the forum.. maintains it for me and without him it would not run .. I run a "its my party and I can do what ever I like" forum .. but its kinda self moderating really so what ever went in your thread was obviously detracting in someway with the flow of this thing mark is doing ..
on that note he ran the idea of the survey pass me and I said sure with the caviet that its not to be used or commercialised in any way and we ARE NOT OR EVER going to sell anybody's details to anybody for anything EVER ..

chill manning Mark is at the source code of this forum pond we play in not just somebody downstream .. he is just kinda shy most of the time but he has read everything ever written here and mods away at his or my will .. -RICK ONEIL )

regarding the issue of job description of technician

what I would call myself can be a bit arbitrary and depend on my mood and circumstances. Sometimes I would call myself an equipment / human relationship councilor ..... seriously the most descriptive, if not long winded, would be
professional audio electronics service technician.
Why not just technician? These days the term technician is often used by folks whose job it is to plug up gear on stage and while that is an important job some who repair and service equipment feel that being called a technician is using a term that is now devalued and ill-defined.

The repair / service industry is quite a large segment of the audio industry and could be worth being represented in a broader industry survey.

So, this survey is about the audio industry, as distinct from the music industry?
The audio industry includes anything from a salesperson at JB Hi Fi to to a systems engineer on a stadium tour.
The music industry includes everything from venue workers to Keith Richards.
Cheers,
Paul

To be clear…
I'm not too worried about a job description, and i happily filled out the survey.
I just found the latter half of the survey more weighted to audio and audio engineering.
For example for the question:
What section of the audio industry to you primarily work in?
There was no button for "performing'. Which seemed quite a glaring omission seeing as i was invited to tick 'Musician' earlier in the survey.

If data collection on audio and studio personnel was the aim…. fine.

I would tend to agree with Rob that the terms "Engineer" and "Technician " have been somewhat devalued primarily by lesser disciplines seeking to inflate their worth. A true engineer requires a far higher level of education than many who now tack "engineer" onto their job description. A true technician in the audio electronics industry will have completed a similar level of education, but usually branched down the more practical side than the engineer who may follow a more theoretical avenue and design or conceptualize the next generation of equipment.
From this we can extrapolate that a "Guitar Technician " who changes strings,tunes ,cleans and adjusts is no more a technician than he is a Luthier. Nor would one refer to an Interior designer as an Internal space Architect.

Anyway that should inflame the debate a little. I'm happy to argue(in the true sense not just mudslinging) on these points of opinion.

Not to transgress - ok I will…. but 'roadie' was a terrible term and is now outdated I think.
The guitar and keyboard technicians I came across were mostly extremely skilled and knowledgeable.
Part of the job is polishing guitars and changing strings, but most guitar and keyboard rigs are a combination of old fashioned hardware and computerized digital gizmos. You really have to know how to fix a valve amp and a micro-computer, within a few hours and in a remote location.

Good,some intelligent debate and opinions. I would agree that if a Technician does have proper training in electronic service and IT related areas and also polishes/rest rings etc guitars then they are a technician. My primary opinion is that to qualify for such a title one should have real training, not just a bit of experience as an aside.It devalues the work of those with the training.

Alastair Reynolds wrote:Good,some intelligent debate and opinions. I would agree that if a Technician does have proper training in electronic service and IT related areas and also polishes/rest rings etc guitars then they are a technician. My primary opinion is that to qualify for such a title one should have real training, not just a bit of experience as an aside.It devalues the work of those with the training.

I have at various junctures, held the title of

Technician
Fitter
Engineer
Metrologist


The Engineer one always bristled me, I had no degree, I had qualifications as the other three, but no degree.. to me
(at nearly 50) Engineers have degrees....

cheers

Wiz

Alastair Reynolds wrote:Good,some intelligent debate and opinions. I would agree that if a Technician does have proper training in electronic service and IT related areas and also polishes/rest rings etc guitars then they are a technician. My primary opinion is that to qualify for such a title one should have real training, not just a bit of experience as an aside.It devalues the work of those with the training.

Does anyone really care about titles?
I ended up coming into contact with a few of the guys who started out in the 60's (working with Hendrix, The Who, Zeppelin) and they were incredibly well versed on advanced, computer controlled guitar and keyboard rigs.
I doubt they ever took a course, just learned as they went along.
In the end, I don't think anything is devalued. If you can keep equipment running in a crisis, you keep your job and probably get recommended for other jobs. If you can't (degree or not) you won't work.

Yes - some intelligent debate and some of my comments....

I agree with Rob and Alastair regarding "technician" and "engineer" to a large extent, but not to the extent of formal training - on that I am with Chris. I have met and worked with numerous people who have all of the skills and knowledge of a top engineer/technician but without the laurel of a formal diploma/certificate/degree - and I would not swap them for someone who holds such a piece of paper.

In the IT world an engineer is a level above an architect, but in the audio world many tack the label "engineer" on themselves when really they are what we used to categorise as a "panel operator". Paradoxically, <edit>.......

I guess the point of a job description is that it goes someway towards describing what you do. My point is "technician" doesn't tell you much about what someone does

Most music industry jobs are filled via word of mouth.
When someone recommends Proharmonic, which they frequently do, it's the customer feedback about the service given, the knowledge and skill in achieving the job at hand, not whether Rob is officially an engineer or technician.

I would only add that I think the whole 'guitar tech' thing has moved on from the 70's and early 80's.
The successful ones really are tech-geeks. Even in 91, Knopfler's rig consisted of numerous amps and cabs, a whole 19" rackcase of outboard, and the entire guitar set up (and sound) changed several times per song, all driven by a custom built Pete Cornish controller, maintained from under the stage by his guitar technician..

Well hats off to Mark - he is starting a valuable survey,(for all of us) that he admits may not be perfect but will evolve.
It also is the Australian AUDIO industry survey - so all of us multi experienced muso's should relax and get our audio hats on.

I do agree that technician is a vague term - in this industry it always will be, Ive met tech's that were employed to roll perfect joints... and I'm sure their title can be more refined in the future.

Mark has started something of importance for both the audio - and the spin off industries (music etc)
Well done I say

This is a good discussion to have over a beer sometime.I'll buy the first round. It is good to see some well thought out discussion and heated agreement. Hopefully we haven't derailed the thread too much.

The Tasmanian wrote:It also is the Australian AUDIO industry survey

True enough.

I enjoyed doing the survey.
It's good to spark discussion about our field of interest and/or expertise.
Cheers,
Paul

Rick and Mark

I'm sorry you feel it is OK to delete at will.

What I posted was perfectly appropriate - it had some suggestions as I was trying to be helpful, and was in no way impolite or disrespectful. I even provided links to some articles run by the American Federation of Musicians in terms of job titles.

Anyway, for some reason that got deleted. And I'm sorry, that is seriously NOT cool.

I'd like to think I've been a positive contributor to Turtlerock over the past two and a half years. But if it is OK for Mark to just delete whatever he wants at will - well in my opinion that makes the place a far less enjoyable place to be.

Umm manning ..?
Did you miss the other guys that got deleted when
The thread was cleaned up including me ?

Sometimes .. Rarely but sometimes
Stuff happens here outside our our sphere
And yes mine too!
I back marks right to do as he likes
Until I don't like it

rob wrote:regarding the issue of job description of technician

what I would call myself can be a bit arbitrary and depend on my mood and circumstances. Sometimes I would call myself an equipment / human relationship councilor ..... seriously the most descriptive, if not long winded, would be
professional audio electronics service technician.
Why not just technician? These days the term technician is often used by folks whose job it is to plug up gear on stage and while that is an important job some who repair and service equipment feel that being called a technician is using a term that is now devalued and ill-defined.

The repair / service industry is quite a large segment of the audio industry and could be worth being represented in a broader industry survey.

Yep, fair call, I'll definitely be talking with you when the next one comes out.

ChrisW wrote:To be clear…
I'm not too worried about a job description, and i happily filled out the survey.
I just found the latter half of the survey more weighted to audio and audio engineering.
For example for the question:
What section of the audio industry to you primarily work in?
There was no button for "performing'. Which seemed quite a glaring omission seeing as i was invited to tick 'Musician' earlier in the survey.

If data collection on audio and studio personnel was the aim…. fine.

I thought artists (specifically musos) would see themselves as being involved in Live Sound?

Clearly I was wrong, will adapt (probably next time), thanks.

Manning wrote:What happened to "Arranger"? It's been deleted, which will screw up my survey response.

No, it won't.

Anyone who responded as "Arranger" will have their responses combined with people who responded "Music Arranger" which is still on the list. Unless you're arranging furniture, "Music Arranger" is a perfectly suitable and acceptable substitute for "Arranger".

Or did you think that I'd just throw away all the "Arranger" responses?

Manning wrote:My primary occupation is as an arranger.

If your a arranger, select Music Arranger - it's on the list.

Manning wrote:Secondarily I work as a composer (whenever such work arises, which sadly isn't often).

If you're a composer, select Composer - it's on the list.

Manning wrote:These are completely different roles - as noted (in an earlier post I made which you arbitrarily deleted) in the US they don't even belong to the same union.

You need to relax, seriously. I made the changes you suggested, read the list, they're both there.

You rightfully pointed out that there is a difference between Arranger and Composer, and that the job "Arranger / Composer" needs to be separated.

This is exactly what I did - there is now "Composer" and "Music Arranger" - I did exactly as you suggested. Your post wasn't ignored, it was acted upon.

Your post wasn't arbitrarily deleted, it was deleted for a reason, which, by definition makes it not an arbitrary deletion.

I deleted many other posts too, after I made the changes generously suggested. If someone points out a typo or an error, I fixed it and remove the post. Not an issue. Unless you want this thread, to contain dozens of posts like "Mate you spelled artist wrong" and then the one I post saying "Thanks, fixed".

Your thread wasn't "detracting in someway with the flow" at all. On the contrary. it was a great observation, well spotted, and I acted immediately on it. The deletion of the post was simple house keeping, I didn't think it was needed and I didn't think folks would miss it.

Manning wrote:On that note - being a forum admin does NOT give you the right to delete posts, even in a thread you created. This is not YOUR forum to do with as you will.

If a post breaches community guidelines then you may of course exercise your moderation power, but apart from that, you don't get to do whatever you want.

I apologise if I upset you by deleting your post, and thanks for reminding me what I can and can't do - I really did need to be pulled up on that.

However, I'm not that guy that goes round with a god complex and deletes peoples shit. And 7 successful years running this thing without doing "whatever I want" is surely evidence enough I would have thought? No? Not enough for you?

Manning wrote:What I posted was perfectly appropriate - it had some suggestions as I was trying to be helpful, and was in no way impolite or disrespectful.

Never said it was. It was helpful, and was acted upon immediately. The respect I had for your comments should be evident in the fact that they were immediately put into place in the survey.

Manning wrote:I even provided links to some articles run by the American Federation of Musicians in terms of job titles.

You won't believe me but I read them, and I saved them for next year's survey. Should I have left those links up so everyone could enjoy them, yes. And I am sorry for deleting something that I thought was innocuous but turned out to upset some folks. But should you judge my character on a single act (suggesting that I just do whatever the f@#$ I want) and then act like an ass about it, no.

"Hey guys, what's up with my post disappearing, what happened there?" would have been a "seriously cool" way to raise the issue, as opposed to casting aspersions about forum tyranny for all to see.

You are a valued contributor and I hope you continue in the community here - you're certainly been round long enough for us not to judge you or your motivations on a single post, perhaps you'd like to offer us, the people who run the forum for free, the same level of respect, or at least the benefit of the doubt.

Tell me your details (age, city, etc) and I'll happily remove you from the survey.

Mark McKinnon-Bassett wrote:
I thought artists (specifically musos) would see themselves as being involved in Live Sound?

Clearly I was wrong, will adapt (probably next time), thanks.

Ok, I never would have thought of that.
Thanks in advance for next time.

ChrisW wrote:

Mark McKinnon-Bassett wrote:
I thought artists (specifically musos) would see themselves as being involved in Live Sound?

Clearly I was wrong, will adapt (probably next time), thanks.

Ok, I never would have thought of that.
Thanks in advance for next time.

Yeah I really need to stop thinking that people think like I do.

A decent, clear and intelligent resonse Mark.

it gave me pause to remind myself of the most important ethos in life and work. .. one I keep needing to relearn
..... Assume Nothing ...