Turtlerock Forum

Hey Guys,

I had a thought regarding our many DIY conquests...

i know that many of us have been following the prodigy site, and have been building 1176's, ssl comps, la2a, neve type pres etc etc...

much of the time that goes into building this stuff isn't so much the construction, but the actual ordering of parts, studying the schematics, pcb layouts etc..

This can often involve reading through 60+ forum pages to find out about mods and errata and pitfalls to avoid when constructing....

What if we all perhaps nominated ourselves to say one project each that we have built sucessfully - and one that we know the ins and out's of.

then if say someone else in the group wants to build one - we could direct them as to what to avoid, and how to go go about constructing the particular project...

that way if we wanted to build say a pair of everything we would only have to really dig in and research all the unclear / hazy information for 'one' project instead of having to do so for 10 projects....

this would speed up our builds and help us avoid making common mistakes..

I have an almost great grasp of building the 1176 in rev D and rev H, and the night eq (soon)
i'd be willing to help anyone out with these... - including mouser order boms (save's having to manually order...) where to get 4.7Mohm pots etc....

what do you think guys....

Considering I've just got my 1176 Rev D boards.. I might be asking you a few questions very soon.. ;]

Regards

Mike

sounds cool!

I can help out with GSSL questions, I have built myself a couple and I have 2 more in the in-box to use live.

Sounds like a good idea. I'm gonna need all the help I can get building this Poormans 660.

I've also built a few GSSL's so I'm sure that one's covered.

Actually sourcing parts would be something we could definitely help each other out with. Group Buys' and shipping etc etc...

nice one guys,

my tip of the day: mouser orders.....

i kinda figured out that you can only order 99 'lines' or different component types in one shipment..

i found this out when i ordered 127 different lines and it split my order into two (therefore charging me 2 shipping fees.)

i saw this online pretty quickly and emptied my cc account. Then i emailed them as to why. (they didnt bother responding and when they did they missed the point.

eventually they cancelled the order and i resubmitted it with 99 lines... (left out items that are easy to obtain like resistors)


wimas, nichicons, ic sockets all very cheap...

and...

found a good cheap source for jrc chips while i was at it.... and very very cheap too..

will be happy to help re: 1176 rev D - mine are almost done... waiting on ed anderson transformers and group buy attenuators....

cheers

Don't forget that Wagner/Wes in Sydney have a fantastic range of components, and a good selection of high quality caps. I am getting a little wary of Jaycar, they seem to be buying more and more cheap chinese components, and their connectors are getting tinnier by the year. I buy resistors there and they do have lots of good lines, but I don't think that Mouser would have much more than Wes, and you get it the next day. Wagner is the retail arm, Wes is the trade arm. It is my go-to store before Farnell or RS.

http://www.wagner.net.au/

ditto for the comments about WES. They are the go-to supplier for the service industry. I've been using the EXR series caps from them by the thousands, they are good and .... cheap.

and keep in mind i think it's great people are getting into DIY and building gizmos for themselves. If anyone ever gets stuck with a unit that they just can't get working or say you want the THD trimmed in your GSSL, i'm up for it...perhaps i should have a special DIY rate??

Rob

...perhaps (stroke chin)....pehaps :P

sounds good Rob!

I would much prefer to build up a project and test using a bench supply then have the 240v wiring done by an actual electrician. Pity i don't live in Adelaide.

[quote="rob"]perhaps i should have a special DIY rate??

Rob[/quote]

Thanks Rob you'll be working for free before you even know it.

What is it about service techs and soft toys?

that is an excellent question thirteen...to wit there is no easy answer

R

harry wrote:sounds good Rob!

I would much prefer to build up a project and test using a bench supply then have the 240v wiring done by an actual electrician. Pity i don't live in Adelaide.

That is an excellent point. Whilst I love doing DIY, I hate the idea that I may just be giving my insurer an excellent reason to void my insurance policy if something goes wrong. Let alone the whole "thou shalt not do mains wiring" issue, which is something else altogether. Most of my builds so far use wall warts or external transformers, but I may have well have connected up the odd transformer primary to an IEC connector and plugged it into the wall from time to time (or may not have - who wants to know?)

The trick I guess is that there's bugger all involved to be done and would barely be worth a busy tech's time to do. Rob, do you have any thoughts/views on good folk such as yerself providing a service like this?

umm a few thoughts

i don't know that it is strictly illegal for you to do mains wiring INSIDE a unit for your own use.

getting clear and consistant information about all the regulations and standards for mains stuff is actually quite difficult. For example i recently had a simple question about licence requirements or otherwise to do some mains related work and i first phoned safework SA ( industry safety and inspectors etc ). They couldn't answer my question and referred me to the office of the technical regulator, they couldn't answer my question and referred me to the office of consumer and business affairs, at which point i gave up. There was a fair bit of "i think that is ok" which astounded me. I ended up using a friend of mine who works for safework SA to make an internal enquiry. After a week i got an answer to my question which was contrary to what the two previous "experts" had "thought would be the case" told me and was also contrary to what i had the week before been explicitly taught in a TAFE course i was doing.

anyway i digress....

there could be an AT article from me about this whole 240V stuff. But i will say this for certain. If you own a commercial studio, and that means even if it is in your bedroom but you charge in any way. Then, every piece of 240V equipment, every extension cord and power board must be tested and tagged..and done so every 12 months. Even that brand new dooflager still in it's shrinkwrap you've just brought home from the corner audio store, must be tested and tagged before you plug it in. By not doing this you open yourself up to being in deep shit if anyone gets an electric shock.

What i am now doing is that every 240V job that comes through my door, wether it is something i fundamentally build or just repair, i'm now testing and tagging it. I've hit on a $5 fee to do this, which is a pretty standard fee for testing and tagging and basically means that maybe in 3 years time i might recoup the cost of the testing equipment, stickers and certification course fee. I feel this is good for you and it is good for me, not financially by any means but to be confident about the electrical safety of outgoing jobs.

So, yes i can help. Wiring up the mains side of a DIY project is quite straightforward ( getting the grounding correct can be another matter ) But given the craziness i've seen in other people's work or even basic understanding about fuses, I assume nothing!

Rob

Thanks Rob - all good to know. To date I've simply assumed as a matter of prudence that the references I've seen around to it being illegal to do any kind of mains wiring extends up to and includes wiring up the primary of a Power Transformer. I might contact you about shooting some of my gear to you to check over and green/red light.

An AT article on this stuff would be great, I reckon. If you need someone to do a bit of legwork on the regulatory/legal side of things, I'm happy to help and am interested in the answers anyway (being a lawyer, that kind of thing is my bag, sadly).

rob wrote:there could be an AT article from me about this whole 240V stuff. But i will say this for certain. If you own a commercial studio, and that means even if it is in your bedroom but you charge in any way. Then, every piece of 240V equipment, every extension cord and power board must be tested and tagged..and done so every 12 months. Even that brand new dooflager still in it's shrinkwrap you've just brought home from the corner audio store, must be tested and tagged before you plug it in. By not doing this you open yourself up to being in deep shit if anyone gets an electric shock.

I'm not sure this is true. I think it depends on how your workplace is defined. The regulations were changed a while ago so that only "hostile environments" need to have ALL equipment/leads tagged. Again it is hard to find details on this, but I was given to understand that if a "competent person" defines the workplace or area to be a "non-hostile environment" then the tagging rules are much relaxed. At least that's my understanding... this is NSW, not sure about other states/territorries... YMMV

otto

indeed you could be right Otto. This is part of the frustrating aspect of the legislation, it is virtually impossible to find the simple truth. I suspect that the requirements would only ever be spelt out through a test case in court. Whilst the Australian Standard AS3760 2003 lays out the ground rules, it is each state's own OH&S laws that set the regulations. Certainly here in SA the OH&S regulations are very vague and the dept that administers the act has a hard time giving clear advice....this is why they have a team of lawyers on the staff, to wrestle with the wording if anything ever hits court.

At one stage i read the relevant section of the SA OH&S act re electrical safety and it told me nothing in a clear manner. I asked for assistance from a friend of mine who actually works as a lawyer for Safework SA....after an hour of mumbo jumbo it was no clearer.

Rob :(

i'm hedging my bets

no question that our childcare centers must be tagged and tested every 12 months - no excuses big fines

I can remember that on any building site, we used to do petroleum installations, understandably a very hostile environment, if we were caught without a tag that equaled big trouble. Any building site I think this would be the norm, but a studio is a pretty safe environment unless you're pulling things apart.

Interesting topic though. I reckon if the gear was DIY and built by a non qualified person and someone got a shock there could be big trouble.

my bet is a studio WOULD be a hostile enviroment if it was an insurance issue , we all need to get tagged and tested or remain "exposed" to litigation if something ever did go wrong

Three comments on this (side) issue:-

[1] We encounter client sites where we are not even allowed on site without up-to-date tags on any mains-powered equipment. We also have to show them our cream (green) cards. Some sites insist on us providing written documentation beforehand relating to site safety evaluations etc etc. Finally, we may have to do an OHS induction at the time of our first visit on site.

[2] Other places we have worked have sometimes had incidents. For example, I can remember one where a truly ignorant sparkie left live wires hanging out of the back of a cupboard space where a dishwasher was to be installed. The client started using the premises and a staff member came in contact with the live wires and got zapped. Worksafe came in and devastation followed.
It is our experience that people and companies are left to self-assess and regulate. However, if something goes wrong, Worksafe come in to investigate and they will always make sure that a fine is issued. And the size of these fines is no joke; if I got one I would be out of business overnight and working til I was 103 to pay it off. Additionally, we have observed that where Worksafe are called out over an incident, they will audit everyone on the site. In the above example, they didn't just audit the electrical company, they went through every trade on the site to check for compliance. You don't want these people on your case.

[3] I don't doubt for a moment that an insurance company would use any excuse that it could to reduce or avoid payouts. If you were found in breach of electrical safety requirements in your state that lead to injury or property damage, I think that your insurance company would have some fine print somewhere to say that they weren't liable, at least for property damage. I wonder about personal liability insurance cover in these instances - the insurance company is still probably liable.

Anyway, that's a picture of how things are in NSW.

Was speaking to a guy the other day who had a gig booked at Crown Casino. Said he had to have his Guitar Amp and and gear tagged just to do the gig.

http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/5794B6C9-527D-46E3-A9D9-54DA242278BB/0/electrical_testing_tagging_frequently_asked_questions_4861.pdf

FAQ about the NSW regulations are regarding testing.

here's an excerpt:

HAS THE LAW CHANGED REGARDING TESTING AND TAGGING OF ELECTRICAL
EQUIPMENT?
Yes, Simplified safety regulations for electrical equipment in the workplace were gazetted on Friday 28
April 2006. The Occupational Health and Safety Amendment (Electrical Equipment) Regulation 2006
amends the previous legislative provisions contained in the Occupational Health and Safety
Regulation 2001 (the Regulation). The amending regulation now specifically identifies working
environments where testing and tagging of electrical equipment is required, such as electrical
equipment used for construction work (as defined in the Regulation) and electrical equipment used in
other ‘hostile operating environments’.

WHAT ARE THE LEGISLATIVE REQUIREMENTS REGARDING TESTING AND TAGGING?
If you are an employer or self-employed person, you have a duty of care to ensure that employees
and visitors to the workplace are safe from injury and risks to health. You must, therefore, manage any
safety risks surrounding electrical hazards, in accordance with the requirements of the Occupational
Health and Safety Act 2000 (the Act) and the Regulation.
To support the application of a risk management approach to electrical safety, you must also comply
with the specific legislative requirements outlined in clause 64 and 65 of the OHS Regulation 2001.
Clause 64 (2) requires,
• all electrical equipment that is used in construction work to be regularly inspected, tested and
maintained by a competent person to ensure it is safe for use, and
• all electrical equipment that is used at a place of work where the safe operation of the electrical
equipment could be affected by a hostile operating environment is regularly inspected, tested
and maintained by a competent person to ensure it is safe for use, and
• all electrical equipment at a place of work that is found to be unsafe is disconnected from the
electricity supply and is repaired, replaced or permanently removed from use.
Clause 65 (1) requires,
• that an employer must ensure that a record is made and kept of all inspections and tests made
and maintenance carried out on electrical equipment.

WHAT IS A HOSTILE OPERATING ENVIRONMENT?
In clause 64 of the Regulation a hostile operating environment means an operating environment at
a place of work where an item of electrical equipment is, in its normal use, subject to operating
conditions that are likely to result in damage to the item of equipment. This includes an operating
environment that may:
• cause mechanical damage to the item of equipment, or
• expose the item of equipment to moisture, heat, vibration, corrosive substances or dust that is
likely to result in damage to the item of equipment.

DOES ALL ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT HAVE TO BE TESTED AND TAGGED?
No, Clause 64(2) of the OHS Regulation only requires testing and tagging of those items of electrical
equipment that are used for construction work or used in a hostile operating environment where the
safe operation of the electrical equipment could be affected.
Note: In addition to the above legislative requirements employers may following completion of a risk
assessment determine that inspection and testing of identified electrical equipment is warranted.

WHAT HAPPENS TO ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT THAT IS NOT USED IN A HOSTILE OPERATING
ENVIRONMENT OR FOR CONSTRUCTION WORK?
Clause 64(1) of the OHS Regulation requires the employer to ensure that any risk of injury from
electricity at a place of work is eliminated or, if elimination is not reasonably practicable, the risk is
controlled.
A risk assessment must be carried out on electrical equipment that does not fit into the above
categories. After the risk assessment, you can then implement a range of control measures to manage
the safe operation of electrical equipment that is used in the workplace, including:
• routine visual checks by the equipment user
• formal visual inspections
• maintenance
• repair
• replacement
• use of fixed or portable residual current devices (RCDs) more commonly known as safety
switches
• training and instructing employees in the safe use of the electrical equipment
• and, if determined as an outcome of a risk assessment, inspection and testing of identified
electrical equipment.
The WorkCover publication entitled Electrical Equipment Risk Assessment can be used to help you
undertake the risk assessment and comply with the legislative requirements described in the
Regulation.

Note this is for NSW only. I don't kniow what the other states' requirements are.

cheers,

otto

rob wrote:ditto for the comments about WES. They are the go-to supplier for the service industry. I've been using the EXR series caps from them by the thousands, they are good and .... cheap.

and keep in mind i think it's great people are getting into DIY and building gizmos for themselves. If anyone ever gets stuck with a unit that they just can't get working or say you want the THD trimmed in your GSSL, i'm up for it...perhaps i should have a special DIY rate??

Rob

Rob
If your able to provide a service to look over DIY jobs and check everything is wired correctly to a scematic and working corectly that would be invaluble.
I'd be prepared to ship gear to SA for that service. Cost pending of course :-)

David
sure, cost is hard to nail, but could be less than the shipping, which for a send and return from the eastern states to Adelaide would be around $50 for a typical 2U device.

Otto
i've just been speaking to Safework SA and the view of their spokesperson was that any and every workplace must comply with test and tag requirements. He pointed to this part of the SA regulations:

Regulation 2.5.7 (1) Regular
inspection and testing must be
performed on electrical plant in the
workplace if the supply of electricity
is through a socket outlet to –
(a) hand held electrical plant; or
(b) electrical plant that is moved while
in operation; or
(c) electrical plant that is moved
between operations in
circumstances where damage to the
electrical plant or to a flexible
supply cord could reasonably occur;
or
(d) electrical plant where electrical
safety could be affected by the
operating environment.

I'm not convinced. Does a rack mounted EQ fall under any of the above??

I'm now trying to get onto the "guru" of OH&S and electrical safety to thrash this out further

stay tuned
Rob

rob wrote:David
sure, cost is hard to nail, but could be less than the shipping, which for a send and return from the eastern states to Adelaide would be around $50 for a typical 2U device.

Otto
i've just been speaking to Safework SA and the view of their spokesperson was that any and every workplace must comply with test and tag requirements. He pointed to this part of the SA regulations:

Regulation 2.5.7 (1) Regular
inspection and testing must be
performed on electrical plant in the
workplace if the supply of electricity
is through a socket outlet to –
(a) hand held electrical plant; or
(b) electrical plant that is moved while
in operation; or
(c) electrical plant that is moved
between operations in
circumstances where damage to the
electrical plant or to a flexible
supply cord could reasonably occur;
or
(d) electrical plant where electrical
safety could be affected by the
operating environment.

I'm not convinced. Does a rack mounted EQ fall under any of the above??

I'm now trying to get onto the "guru" of OH&S and electrical safety to thrash this out further

stay tuned
Rob

interested to hear the response. For my part, it seems a stretch to say that flicking a switch or turning a knob on a fixed installation device is, eg, "(b) electrical plant that is moved while in operation" - this seems to be contemplating moving the device itself, not a part of it, especially when you consider the purpose of (c). And (d) seems to be out as well.

But prudence tells me that a workplace should just assume the worst and treat anything and everything as needing tagging and testing, to avoid all doubt.

just off the phone with the Safework expert

his take is to read that first paragraph and take it literally. Forget dissecting your particular situation with regards points a to d

if it's a workplace, if it plugs into a GPO it must be tested

i'm sure lawyers could have a field day, but like all things OH&S it is best to err on the side of caution

Rob

rob wrote:just off the phone with the Safework expert

his take is to read that first paragraph and take it literally. Forget dissecting your particular situation with regards points a to d

if it's a workplace, if it plugs into a GPO it must be tested

i'm sure lawyers could have a field day, but like all things OH&S it is best to err on the side of caution

Rob

The best approach would be for each user to check their state's legislation as this advice has no validity at all in NSW. There are obviously some differences between the state codes.

(in NSW) Note that in the first instance it is the responsibility of the equipment manufacturer to ensure the safety of the unit when it is sold, and the repairer if the unit is serviced in such a way that can affect the electrical safety of the product (e.g. working on the PSU, replacing power cord etc.)

otto

rob wrote:Does a rack mounted EQ fall under any of the above??

(NSW only) if the equipment is fixed in a rack (in a non-hostile environment such as a control room) then it would not require tagging.

That's what our permanent OHS officer tells me. If I was hiring it out or sending it on the road, or if it was in a roadcase it would need tagging.

(disclaimer: this advice is of a general nature only and should not be relied on. YOUR mileage may vary. Check your with your local expert.)

otto