Turtlerock Forum

http://mixonline.com/mixline/bobludwig_ ... view_0912/

"The average record comes in to us probably sounding worse than it ever has, as far as quality goes."

Thanks Mark

Bob Ludwig wrote:It’s inconceivable to me to be in the music industry without being a musician.

Interesting call: OK, I came to recording via being a classical guitarist, then a band guitarist and like many guitarists I've dabbled in keys and drums. But I wouldn't think it "inconceivable" for a great sound engineer / producer / mastering pofessional to just have a good ear for the music without being able to play or sing a note. Are there any exceptions to the rule out there?

a great sound engineer / producer / mastering pofessional to just have a good ear for the music without being able to play or sing a note.

this concept sits a bit funny with me....

if you're producing a band...theyre playing a riff....and guitarist 2 is playing a riff....guitarist 2's riff has some crappy notes in it....i think its near impossible for someone with Just an ear to be able to tell that...

thats where playing becomes important...a good example is myself, i cant name chord shapes, or any stuff like that, but i play alot of tricky music, melodically and harmonically., and if there are dodgy notes in something im producing, i can sing the right one's out the artist im working with, and we move along and keep recording.

however, when u get to the mastering stage, if something's been recorded with wrong notes, or crap that shouldnt be there....there's not much the ME can do at that stage, so intimite chord knowledge really cant be that important at that stage, unless the ME recorded the project.

I think an important thing for producers and engineers to be mindful of is the language used to talk about playing an instrument....

for example, being able to tell a drummer where to ghost note, where not too....to play some triplets on their ride, or to play crotchets....

same with guitarists, be able to tell them to strum or to finger pick...

So, i think intimate knowledge of instrument performance is a mark of great producers...i cant give you names, but its something I can imagine being the case.

In short chris, my opinion on your topic is, that it might not be inconceivable, BUT, i think less BS gets put onto tape, the more mindful a producer is, less so an engineer, and even less so an ME, the more they know stuff about music theory, performance, and especially playing.


My 2c.

chris p wrote:Thanks Mark

Bob Ludwig wrote:It’s inconceivable to me to be in the music industry without being a musician.

Interesting call: OK, I came to recording via being a classical guitarist, then a band guitarist and like many guitarists I've dabbled in keys and drums. But I wouldn't think it "inconceivable" for a great sound engineer / producer / mastering pofessional to just have a good ear for the music without being able to play or sing a note. Are there any exceptions to the rule out there?

Hmmm interesting.

I started off as a guitarist myself as well as programing midi backing tracks. Took orchestral theory and tooks some singing lessons for a year but don't considder myself very good.

I feel the way I work relys heavily on my ability to discern a good performance from not so good or downright bad. I sometimes spent hours coaching someone through a drum or singing session yet am not very good at it myself but I do know when things are not perfect and how to make them more so.

So i guess being a good teacher or being very patient may be equaly as important as being a proficiant musician. Afterall the general public can tell when a performance sucks it just take someone with the knowlege on what aspect it actualy is that sucks.

Afterall the general public can tell when a performance sucks it just take someone with the knowlege on what aspect it actualy is that sucks.

yeah, thats something i didnt mention....

but as david said, with a combo of music theory, and understanding what makes a good performace, you will be able to tell when someone is singing passionately, and off key = Good...like james brown or janis joplin...

or, off key and without any confidence = bad singing in general.

but yeah, there is always the elusive "what is it that sucks about this".

David W wrote:

chris p wrote:Thanks Mark

Bob Ludwig wrote:It’s inconceivable to me to be in the music industry without being a musician.

Interesting call: OK, I came to recording via being a classical guitarist, then a band guitarist and like many guitarists I've dabbled in keys and drums. But I wouldn't think it "inconceivable" for a great sound engineer / producer / mastering pofessional to just have a good ear for the music without being able to play or sing a note. Are there any exceptions to the rule out there?

Hmmm interesting.

I started off as a guitarist myself as well as programing midi backing tracks. Took orchestral theory and tooks some singing lessons for a year but don't considder myself very good.

I feel the way I work relys heavily on my ability to discern a good performance from not so good or downright bad. I sometimes spent hours coaching someone through a drum or singing session yet am not very good at it myself but I do know when things are not perfect and how to make them more so.

So i guess being a good teacher or being very patient may be equaly as important as being a proficiant musician. Afterall the general public can tell when a performance sucks it just take someone with the knowlege on what aspect it actualy is that sucks.

I guess I could say I was in the same boat as David as well.
I started on guitar (which I still play today) and learnt to program/midi orchestrate while working in a duo for 13yrs. We wrote all our own backing tracks and it just progressed from there. I did the same in another duo for about 4yrs as well.
In between, I played in bands and did some session work for bands.
I still had a passion for the engineering side and decided to get back into it.
I have pretty much finished my Pro Tools Certification and want to make sure that I can make quality records/albums/CD's and know what I'm doing.
I know that I can be honest with a performer to say their vocal is off pitch or not the right harmony or the guitar line doesn't work or theres a bum note somewhere to help coax a better performance out of them - to me, performance is the determining factor between a so-so session and a great session.
I don't profess to know alot about engineering, but I know I can rely on my ears to tell me what's good, bad or mediocre.

i think you will find that ludwigs point is

unless you are / were a musician or a least really musical by nature
why the hell would you WANT to sit in a dark room and listen to music all day.

if it was not his point, i think i will make it mine :)

I get the impression a few things might have been taken out of context by the interviewer......

I may have read more into the comment than Mr Ludwig intended - I think I read "professional" musician rather than someone who has had some musical training. One of my favourite producers, Alan Parsons, for example learned flute, piano and guitar and played in some schools gigs both solo and in groups, but never earned his crust at it. Didn't stop his career, though. Plus being at the right place at the right time helped .....