More Patchbay Newb Questions

[DwaneHollands]

OK Guys,

Still trying to get my head around patchbays. This is what I want to do. Still waiting on an M-Audio Fast Track Ultra 8R to arrive. It has 8 outs total, including the monitor outs. I want to do some analogue summing and would prefer to run 8 outs instead of 6 outs.

The problem is obviously how do I hear what is going on while I'm summing. Particularily if I'm running a stereo comp on end. So I obviously want to hear what's happening and record in the final stereo signal back into my DAW at the same time.

I'm thinking I might be able to do this with my newly aquired (thanks nic!) be!@#$%^& (lol. cracks me up every time I see the re-spelling) PX3000 patchbays. I'm thinking I could use the "Half Normal" mode where I plug the stereo outs from my comp, being the last in the chain from the summing amp, into the back, bottom jacks. And the Monitor inputs in the back, top jacks and my DAW channels 1, 2 into the front Top Jacks.

I've attached an image to show what the half normal mode on the be!@#$%^& PX3000 are supposed to do.

Would that setup take my comps stereo outs and push it to both my DAW inputs and my monitor speakers? Or is it waaaayyyyy offf?

[spandex man]

Looks like it would probably work. Seems a little unnecessary to me, im not sure how much gain you will achieve only summing 8 tracks (4x stereo pair's?), and the extra DA/AD conversion through those converters may hurt more than help. Also depends what you are summing through, a cheapy be!@#$%^& desk or something similar may not be the best thing to run your tracks through.

Sorry to be negative. I had a similar idea a little while ago running my 003 through an old Yamaha mixer, but when i looked at the logistics of it i realized it would be heaps cleaner and more flexible (routing wise, etc) by just mixing in the box.

Worth a shot though, its always fun to experiment.


*Edited to attach my signature, i keep forgetting to add it!

[Chinagraf]

What are you using to sum with? Most summers have 2 stereo outs, one for monitoring and one to feed a master recorder.

[DwaneHollands]

I'm going to sum with one of rob's passivemix 16:2 racks. (got one on order) Make up gain with a pair of API 512C preamps that I have on order. (also have 2 x 550b's and 2 x 527's on order aswell)

so it'll be coming out the end of the lunch box. Only one set of outputs.

[Sammas]

I would have thought the advantages of analog summing would be partly due to the way you mix through it.
Kind of like mixing through a compressor on the stereo bus?

[DwaneHollands]

I would have thought the advantages of analog summing would be partly due to the way you mix through it.
Kind of like mixing through a compressor on the stereo bus?

Hmmm, didn't know about that. Good observation. I thought it was kinda, "Get your mix right first, then sum OTB"

I was thinking of summing the drum parts first to create a submix. Then guitars etc etc. Then sum all the submixes and put a comp on the 2buss at the end.

Thoughts?

[mylesgm]

I do this all the time using a Chilton CM-2 Broadcast console. 4 stereo channels feeding a master buss and there are sowter transformers on the input channels and on the master output bus. I can drive the board harder for a warmer sound or a little lighter for a cleaner more dynamic sound. The input channels all have stepped input controls, pan, mono sum etc and the board has on onboard oscillator that I use to level match channels. Do a jazz album featuring some lovely piano trio and voice work as well as some New Orleans style gumbo jazz. The summing approach allows different and recallable colors on mix, subtle but effective to my ears. I can also use some outboard compression on the different busses. Drums short attack medium release, Bass and Gtrs medium attack shorter release, Voice and verbs, no buss compression and then on return to tools sidechain compression on the master. All pretty easy but delay compensation is necessary or at least careful checking of the routing. I also get lovely backlit VU meters, and a range of other benefits with my little broadcast desk.

And yes mixing skill is way more important than the in the box out of the box comparison. In fact I find that the mixing skill is far more important than any gear option. Good gear and lots of options can of course make the whole project better but good gear and lots of options will not help a bad mix and can certainly confuse an engineer not experienced with that gear. I've certainly experienced that in my own practise. The gear I have mixed on changes drastically from studio to studio and my own setup continually changes but as I've developed as a mix engineer my mixes have got better regardless of what studio and what gear I'm using. Or maybe thats just how I see it.

M

[DwaneHollands]

I do this all the time using a Chilton CM-2 Broadcast console. 4 stereo channels feeding a master buss and there are sowter transformers on the input channels and on the master output bus. I can drive the board harder for a warmer sound or a little lighter for a cleaner more dynamic sound.

Interesting. I will have to experiment with pushing the gains harder on the 512C's when I get them.

The input channels all have stepped input controls, pan, mono sum etc and the board has on onboard oscillator that I use to level match channels. Do a jazz album featuring some lovely piano trio and voice work as well as some New Orleans style gumbo jazz.

Cool stuff!

The summing approach allows different and recallable colors on mix, subtle but effective to my ears.

That's what I'm after. Just a little more refinement at the end.

I can also use some outboard compression on the different busses. Drums short attack medium release, Bass and Gtrs medium attack shorter release, Voice and verbs, no buss compression and then on return to tools sidechain compression on the master. All pretty easy but delay compensation is necessary or at least careful checking of the routing.

Yeah, that's interesting about doing some different compression techniques for each of the submixes. Perhaps very subtly as I'm hoping my mix is already fairly well balanced by then.

I'm keen to try the ReaRoute function in Reaper, as it's a plugin which you set the hardware in's and out's and can be placed inbetween other plugins. Just a quick way to setup the hardware routing and has a ping utility built in to ensure correct delay compensation.

I also get lovely backlit VU meters, and a range of other benefits with my little broadcast desk. And yes mixing skill is way more important than the in the box out of the box comparison. In fact I find that the mixing skill is far more important than any gear option. Good gear and lots of options can of course make the whole project better but good gear and lots of options will not help a bad mix and can certainly confuse an engineer not experienced with that gear. I've certainly experienced that in my own practise. The gear I have mixed on changes drastically from studio to studio and my own setup continually changes but as I've developed as a mix engineer my mixes have got better regardless of what studio and what gear I'm using. Or maybe thats just how I see it.

Probably that continually changing from studio to studio has improved your skills. Different Listening environments. That would keep you on your toes! Yeah my mixing skills have a long way to go. This is something I'm committed to, hence the reason for my investment in the gear. I know I've just got to keep putting the hours in, so I get into the studio as often as I can. (do have to sleep aswell sometimes. lol)

But I'm really wanting to push the envelope in the quality area. Want to make outstanding sounding records, not just "yeah not bad", "close enough".

It's a long time coming no doubt....one hour at a time : )