Advice on preamp/DI

[mavdime]

Hello T'rockers!

I am looking to invest in a preamp/Di and would appreciate some advice as to my options

I mainly produce downtempo electronic music but have been doing a lot more live instrumentation recently (acoustic guitar, bass, percussion stuff) and would like to start doing more vocal recording

I have a Sm57 and a tube condenser (Newmann retro), which until now i had been plugging into the mic pres on my interface (echo Audiofire 8)... I would like to step up from these pres and get something a bit better

Ideally i would like a pre that is versatile and sounds reasonable (highly subjective I know!), but would also like something with good Di abilities so I could DI the bass guitar (active bass, therefore passive DI should be fine unless I'm mistaken?) and some analog synths.

Ideally I would like to spend less than $1k, but am willing to hold out for a bit longer to get something slightly dearer if it's really worth it.

So far I have had my eye on the single channel Great River pre, Focusrite Isa, Chandler Germanium etc but have also heard good things about the Avalon Vt 737, Sebatron VMP, Milennia TD...

I guess one of the things I am unsure about given the fact that I already have a decent tube mic (decent to my ears anyway) is whether I should look for a Tube Pre, a solid state or soemthing like the U Audio Twinfinity which would allow both? Since I mix ITB and not on a desk the idea of having some outboard with tubes in it is quite appealing!

Anyway, I would appreciate any advice/suggestions about which pres (if any ) I should be looking at and so on!

Cheers

Manny

[jkhuri44]

G'day Manny,

Check out the DAV Electronics BG-1...stereo pre..with DI...for 1K shipped to Aus. it is compared to GML tone, some people say they are highly comparable.

It's the choice of quite a few jazz/classical recordists. Clean, high headroom, big sound, should be sweet choice for electronic stuff.

Im bagging myself one for exactly the same porpoise you described!

[vanderlae]

You mentioned the Germanium which is a great unit, but I prefer the Chandler TG2 preamp - have you included that in your 'maybe' list? It's got a hell of a lot of character, sounds wonderful and the DI is SENSATIONAL, especially for bass. I sold mine a while ago (here) but they come and go reasonably often. You won't get one for a grand, but if you're considering Germaniums, get hold of a TG2 and give it a shot. I will end up buying one of these back sooner or later!

Dave

[mavdime]

Jkuhiri --- thanks for the heads up about the DAV, i have heard good things about hem (the guys that write Sound on Sound mention them a lot) so I will definitely look into it

Dave --- thanks for the advice, the TG2 does look mighty tasty, good to know that the DI is top notch... it seems a lot of people that record bass go for separate DIs like the Avalon U5 or Radials and I have heard many people comment that the DI on most preamp units is an afterthought... so it's good to know the Tg2 has a a good DI... I will keep my eyes open for a Tg2 and see if i can hear one... while it is a bit above my budget I have learnt through experience that it is not always best settling for cheaper options when it comes to these sorts of things...

[Alistair]

If you've just been using the pre's on your Echo, I think all the pre's you mentioned will suit you really well. The 737 isn't my favourite, but it's certainly a decent box. The Isa 110 is a great pre/DI for the price- I've got one and whilst it isn't perfect, it's does sound really solid on 99% of stuff. Not too coloured, but still with a bit of warmth. And you can probably get one for less than $600 at the moment.

I would think maybe the Germanium is a bit of a 'sound' if you're only going to have 1 pre, and may not be the most versatile.
Personally, from your list I'd be hunting down the Great River or Sebatron. I think they are both solid pre's, that give you a 'coloured' sound that isn't completely over the top, and still pretty versatile.

I haven't used the DAV stuff mentioned, but if the reviews are to be believed, it probably does the Millennia thing pretty well for a lot less $$$.

As far as the DI- sometimes I wonder whether the DI in a U5 is an afterthought.....

[jkhuri44]

the review on the BG-1 as a bass DI is very good, got a very big, clean sound.

Sebatron stuff looks very versatile too!

[mavdime]

Thanks for the responses Alistair and Jkhuri,

One other question I really should ask is whether it is worth going down the path of getting a channel strip... At the moment I do all my compressing/Eqing ITB using plugins from Sonnox, Elysia, etc, etc

While I have been happy doing it this way with synth and sampler tracks, I wonder whether a channel strip/recording channel such as the Avalon Vt or Univerala Audio 6176 would be more useful if I am recording bass and vocals and what not so I can comp/eq the recorded sounds on the way in?

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on whether this is necessary or whether I should stick with my ITB Eqs and Comps for the time being, and simply use the preamp/di for getting the sound in there, especially since the range of quality channel strips in my price range would be limited compared to the range of pres (ie. for under $1300 or so I could probably pick up the great river or the Sebatron VMP or a Focusrite ISA, but I don't think I could get a good channel strip in this range)

At the moment it looks like a toss up between either the Great River, Sebatron or DAV... the Sebatron and DAV are appealing since their 2 channel (the Sebatron even has 2 channels of DI which suits me for DI-ing stereo synths), but the only concern i have is whether 2 two tube stages in a row (tube mic followed by tube pre) would be too mushy? Obviously this isn't a concern if i go for a good solid state option...

It sounds like I may need to actually hear some of these units in action... anybody have any recommendations for where (ie which shops) I could go hear them at?

[jkhuri44]

if you're not in a rush, u could have a bash at my DAV when it arrives .

umm, since you do electronic, i would recommend spending more money on a better input stage, ie. preamp, and doing ur eq comp ITB. If you are capturing clean sounds, u can always make things dirtier or coloured after the fact.

also remember, alot of electronic music is strictly laptop based, so ANY hardware is a good start

[Alistair]

I think there is no harm using ITB EQ- the plugs you mention are good quality plugs too. I really believe (and you hear it said a lot) that for neutral, corrective EQ'ing ITB is fantastic, but I still find it very harsh for boosting frequencies compared to a good quality outboard EQ. For this reason I use a couple of plugs for corrective work, and then have a few channels of outboard EQ for boosting and shaping signals.

I feel the same about ITB compression- it's ok when you use a very small amount, but I find if you need to do a bit more work it can get very 'thwacky' quite quickly, and in terms of compression for specific tone, I've only come across a few I like. That being said, personally I don't like the compressors in either the 737 or 6176. The 6176 I find to be a one trick pony (and from memory you can't use it separately from the pre), and the 737 I find a bit like a cheap plug- it seems to have little effect, then all of a sudden it's over the top and pumping. I quite like the EQ on the 737 though (although I know not everyone does). And I've heard some mixes using just plug ins that sound fantastic, so I certainly don't think it's a case that you NEED outboard (but it works for me).

If I was you, I'd just grab a great pre and go from there- it's probably best not to over think it, and if you feel like something is missing AFTER you've got a pre that you like, then you can worry about other outboard gear.

[mavdime]

Jkhuri - thanks for the offer, I may well take you up on that when your DAV arrives... I'm located in Canberra but often am up in Sydney or Melbourne and move to Melbourne in about 2 months, so if you're anywhere around those cities I may drop in on you to give it a listen...

Alistair - thanks, I pretty much have reached the same conclusion.... I have been quite happy with the Sonnox Eq and some of the Brainworx Eqs for example, and usually try to restrict my Eqing as much as possible to corrective cutting rather than boosting... In my limited experience with playing with Hardware EQs (only 2 I have ha a chance to get my paws on, besides in a console are the Manley Massive Passive and A-Designs Hammer) I got the distinct impression that they sounded a lot smoother and forgiving with boosting frequencies... I have not yet tried the UAD Eqs which are reputedly pretty good with boosting as long as you don't use stupid amounts of boost.

Pretty much the same goes with compression... i used to own a Drawmer 1968ME and it was noticably better to my ears anyway at adding medium or large amounts of compression than some really nice software comps I have used... unfortunately I had to sell this comp so back to ITb for a while yet..

In a way I think it has been a positive experience learning how to use EQs and Comps on plugins for me anyway, since it has forced me to not be heavy-handed

I guess the best idea for now is to forget about the channel strip idea and go for a nice preamp/di instead, such as the DAV, Sebatron or Great River

Thankyou all for your advice and suggestions, much appreciated

Manny